Re: The Steve Bruce thread

[deadbuzzardalive]

Rowett's brand of football is actually very similar to Bruce's, very workman like, I think the fact that ourselves, them and Cardiff are so high up in the table is an indication of how poor the Championship is this season.

They've lost a few times at Pride Park this season, so no reason why we shouldn't go there believing we can win, we have to really, all our remaining games in December are going to be tough, we can't keep making excuses and excepting draws, need to start collecting those three points.

I agree on Rowett. But tell you what, Brentford's football is pretty decent. I'd have Dean Smith over Bruce any bloody day of the week.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if he's (Smith) our manager next season, in the Championship. I'd take him now.

[Guest]

Wouldn't be at all surprised if he's (Smith) our manager next season, in the Championship. I'd take him now.

Seconded. Give him January.

[De Kuip]

so here's a question: Would people - and I get both of these choices are rubbish - prefer to finish outside of the playoffs or in them but lose and not go up? Do people think that either scenario would result in Bruce getting the boot if he's still here then? I suppose I'm thinking that if he got us to say 3rd or 4th and then we win the first playoff round but lost the final, would it be enough to convince Xia that we were unlucky and to stick with Bruce?
Just wondering  (obviously I dread the thought of either scenario, except the Bruce going part!).

[Guest]

I'm pretty certain he'd get the sack if promoted. I think the reason for him being hired is basically Brian Little saying he's the go to man for promotion. While much can be said on all accounts, I think one thing that's clear is that Xia's reign so far has been pretty pragmatic.

If I were to play the devils advocate, even if I want Bruce sacked, I think one major positive is that we are picking up points even on bad days. Which is a sign of a promotion candidate.

My major issue is that even if we are promoted we'd get relegated first season cause we would need a completely new style of play and have no time to implement it. While the parachute money would be fantastic, that way of thinking ultimately turns this club in a yoyo club of the likes of Hull, Norwich and what not.

[FoxyAV]

After a few seasons of clinging on in the Premier League with all our best players leaving one-by-one and a scattergun approach of buying in lots of cheap players, hoping they'll work and then seeing regular management changes and different approaches messing up everything, I was hoping dropping a division and a new owner would enable us to build a solid team to gain promotion and keep going. What we have though is a mess with no momentum or hope of carrying a coherent team up into the PL.

On the plus side Bruce hasn't been afraid to play those players who work and do well and we've done well enough. I watched Reading tear us apart earlier in the season and they're down in 16th so something's working for us - possibly having some of the best individual players in the Championship and being what must be the most expensive team ever put together in the league. On the downside we still only have three goals in the league so far from strikers - surely some kind of record? We never discovered what McCormack was good at and Hogan is wasting his time here. There's an excellent player in there and it baffles me why Bruce bought him in only to leave him mostly isolated and trying to fight much taller defenders for long balls he doesn't have a chance in hell of bringing down, let alone doing anything with. Kodjia's injury is a blow but even he was struggling to score any goals. In fact Davis seems to only be good at holding up the ball long enough for the midfield to take over and score the goals. That's a bit unfair on Davis, maybe he and Hogan could make a partnership.

Meanwhile we're lumbering along with the likes of Elmo, Whelan and Onomah and only seeing better players come in when injuries happen. Bruce looks to defend first, to try to counter what the opposition is strong at rather than look at our strengths and play to them. We're on the defensive when we should be looking to attack.

I'm just resigned to another season in the Championship with another new manager coming in with new coaches and a different style of play. We'll sell off players like Hogan before that happens and bring in some kind of striker happy to collect hoofballs and score from nothing (Benteke, Kodjia), and then the new manager will want to keep the ball on the ground. We then start again and FFP hinders our progress while another Wolves comes along and more money comes into the league as owners invest to get to all that money in the PL. Onomah, Snodgrass and Terry will all go, Whelan and Jedi will be another year older, Elmo will sit on the sidelines hoping Bruce gets another job soon, our academy players like O'Hare will be asking to go and play elsewhere and we'll be no closer to building a strong core to the team and building that momentum we need to get up a league.

And yes, I put most of this blame at Bruce and the people who think he's still the right man for the job.

[deadbuzzardalive]

If we reached the play-offs, but got knocked out, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Bruce given another chance next season, if Wyness has anything to do with it. Also doubt the club would be brave enough to part ways with him on promotion, we'd have to wait for him to fail in the premier first, and waste a load of money on his kind of players, i.e 'real men' in the process.

We need someone other than Wyness at the club to make the footballing decisions, leave him to handle the business side of things.

[FoxyAV]

If we reached the play-offs, but got knocked out, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Bruce given another chance next season, if Wyness has anything to do with it. Also doubt the club would be brave enough to part ways with him on promotion, we'd have to wait for him to fail in the premier first, and waste a load of money on his kind of players, i.e 'real men' in the process.

Even if we get to the play-offs we won't get through, we can't beat the teams around us (or even ones lower down the league) so there's not much chance of beating two in a row. We definitely won't see automatic promotion. We're going to have to sell to buy in January, which means the likes of Hogan and, er, who else? De Laet? Lansbury? Who knows. Bearing in mind Bruce bought Hogan and can't stop playing Whelan (and bought Hourihane and Lansbury and look how good they were in the second half of last season) I have no faith whatsoever in Bruce buying in the right players and them having any positive influence on the team. We'll be in the Championship at the start of next season and will 'pick ourselves up and go again'. Which probably should now be translated into Latin and plastered all round the club.

[Guest]

I would love to build a team around young players tbh. Watching us sign McCormack, Lansbury and more when we got Davis, Doyle Hayes and others, is really annoying me.

[FoxyAV]

I still want to see Lansbury and Hourihane in the middle of the pitch (again). Sure, they play a similar role but I reckon they'd be brilliant.

I'd love to see our youth players given a chance, since we have some really good ones. What we don't need to be doing is keep giving match time to Onomah when a) he's not doing anything and b) isn't even our own player. I bet his stats are fantastic though, and that's what I think Bruce bases his selection on!

[Saunders82]

There has to be a striker in the under 23s that could be given a try, rather than being short of fire power.

[Guest]

Ofc there is, but Bruce doesn't play youths unless he's forced to

[FoxyAV]

There has to be a striker in the under 23s that could be given a try, rather than being short of fire power.

It feels like we already have the two best ones in Davis and Audrey.

Our best case scenario if we stick with Bruce is to bring in someone good on loan who works well the way he's playing us. We absolutely can't buy someone if there's any chance a) they won't work and b) Bruce is on thin ice.

So far the players of note he's brought in are Hogan (doesn't work), Hourihane (does work, once Bruce had to play him), Lansbury (doesn't work), Whelan (doesn't work), Elmo (been replaced, doesn't work), Onomah (doesn't work), Snoddy (does work) and Terry (great but still annoyed we replaced a good defender who worked with a temporary, injury-prone player who's now injured and now we have problems at the back!). And Gollini went when Bruce arrived without an Italian goalkeeping coach.

Bearing in mind O'Hare can't get in the team (and Grealish barely can and can't even usurp Onomah) it's highly unlikely we'll see an academy striker dropped into it.

[deadbuzzardalive]

To be fair in recent times the only proper striker in the u23s has been Harvey Knibbs, and he's only just graduated from the u18s. Davis is already playing for the first team and Hepburn-Murphy has been injured, and his bad luck continues as both of his comeback games have been called off, due to bad weather, and with Hogan and Agbonlahor returning from injury, and the probable arrival of a striker on loan in January, his chances will probably be limited.

Also I don't think Onomah is as bad as people are suggesting, he's had poor games, but he's also had games where he's been our stand out player, and looked a class above everyone else. As it happens I thought he played quite well on Saturday, especially in the second half, when he was playing down the left-hand side.

[FoxyAV]

Also I don't think Onomah is as bad as people are suggesting, he's had poor games, but he's also had games where he's been our stand out player, and looked a class above everyone else. As it happens I thought he played quite well on Saturday, especially in the second half, when he was playing down the left-hand side.

Apparently he played at Spurs as a defensive midfielder, it would be nice if he's going to be played to see him in Whelan's position, freeing up a spot for Grealish, O'Hare or when he's fit, Hogan. Alternatively give Davis a rest by playing Onomah instead of Whelan and bringing in Grealish behind Hogan. A combination (diamond?) of Onomah, Hourihane, Grealish and Hogan would be interesting to see. Ain't going to happen though, Bruce will stick with what he knows.

Funny isn't it, a couple of seasons ago we were all unhappy because we were seeing no goals from midfield, only strikers, and we were annoyed the formation and starting 11 would change every week.

[Guest]

Also I don't think Onomah is as bad as people are suggesting, he's had poor games, but he's also had games where he's been our stand out player, and looked a class above everyone else. As it happens I thought he played quite well on Saturday, especially in the second half, when he was playing down the left-hand side.

We had this discussion when he was signed and I was absolutely murdered on here for saying he wouldn't be worth signing when we have academy players that could do the same job. I still hold that view.

It's not that Onomah is a bad player, he is obviously talented. But when we got other young players with loads of talent who aren't given their fair crack cause we decide to become a training ground for spurs, then I really fail to see the fucking point. Say you gave his shirt to Grealish, O'Hare or Doyle Hayes. Ok, they might not be setting the pitch a light, but Onomah doesn't do that either so what's the point. At least if one of ours end up developing well we either get to keep him or we can recieve some money for him. At the moment Onomah is not playing well enough to warrant a place in the side and that's the crux of it. Just a stupid signing right from the bat.

[De Kuip]

some top posts today folks, lots of food for thought regarding Bruce and our playing staff.
Personally I think January - if we get a striker in who performs (so that's 2 ifs already!) could be absolutely key to where we finish.
Personally I think we'll make playoffs but not go up. Painful as that is I honestly could stand another season in the championship if I thought it would mean a new progressive manager and a season playing proper football so we could go up like Brighton for example. The reason behind this thinking is I really believe if we qualify this season we'll get reamed in the Prem, due to either keeping Bruce or getting rid and expecting a new manager to work miracles in the summer.
A season creating something Prem standard  - as I said, like Brighton and tbh like Wolves  - that allows us to smash the championship and hold our own in the Prem is worth investing in. Thats why id like Bruce gone today because not only do i not think he's the manager for us, i think every week he stays is a week of true progress lost.

[achilles]

Some excellent posts by people.

Totally agree with @Joppe84 regarding Onomah.
He is okay but nothing special that you think great he is playing and I won't be sorry to see him go back to Spurs.
I can tell you now if he plays in the Spurs team he will put a darn sight more energy in than when he is playing for us because he will be fighting for his place while here he is virtually guaranteed a game and it shows!
Now I know I sound like a broken record but O'Hare wasn't even on the bench on Saturday, what the hell does he has to do to get a chance? While Bruce is in charge, unless Bruce is forced because of circumstances like Davis, he is not going to get a chance. On top of all that at the beginning of the season the good Doctor categorically stated that this season would be a mixture of experience and youth and it definitely hasn't happened so far!

Agree with @De Kuip post as well.
Quite happy to stay in the championship if it meant that we could get some resemblance of a positive playing style that we could take into the PL without the present shit that if by any remote chance we got promoted, relegation would beckon straight away.

[FoxyAV]

I checked on whoscored and Onomah is in 16th, the worst regular starter (behind Johnstone, Hutton and Whelan). He's scored three, has one assist, was MOTM once, is listed as an attacking midfielder and scores 6.67 after 1127 minutes.

Hourihane meanwhile is in 2nd, behind the mighty Uncle Albert. Hourihane has scored five, has two assists, was MOTM twice, is listed as a defensive midfielder and scores 7.19 after 1592 minutes.

Interestingly Onomah is a place behind Gabby (and one ahead of Lansbury) and amusingly they say Johnstone is weak at long balls!

I know stats aren't always correct (for example Davis might not be doing very well as a striker but as a team player he's doing superbly, and some players are better or worse depending on manager and tactic) but it gives an interesting slant on the whole Onomah thing. When Hourihane, Lansbury and Hogan came in 11 months ago they all had excellent stats, and I had a feeling good numbers where what kept Elmo in the team. That he still has better stats than Hutton doesn't seem to back up that theory. I honestly believe the only way we'll see Onomah and Whelan replaced is due to injury, and in the case of the latter we need Jedi injured to be able to see what we can do with a proactive side.

[deadbuzzardalive]

Tottenham have a recall option on Onomah in January, and some Villa fans seem to be of the opinion that they won't exercise it, because he wouldn't get in their team, but don't put it past Pochettino to call him back and send him to another club, that plays a style of football more akin to that which Spurs play, so as to better ready him.

Personally I think we play better with a three man midfield, and Onomah's one of the best three currently at the club. I'd like to see O'Hare and Grealish play more, but really it's Snodgrass and Adomah, that they're competing with, unless we play 442 or 441.

[FoxyAV]

I actually don't object to Onomah but if he's a defensive midfielder why don't we play him as one unless like Richards at CB he wants (or is contractually obliged) to be something else? He's not really working as an attacking midfielder. Actually, whoscored (I promise I'm nothing to do with them - is there another stats site?) reckon he's poor at passing but strong defensively.

Does anyone here actually like the combination of Onomah, Hourihane and Whelan? For me a simple change that won't disrupt the team would be to replace Whelan with Grealish, keep Whelan on the bench (whoscored say he's weak at tackling!) for when we need someone angry on the pitch and drop Onomah into defensive duty.

I think Bruce has gone for stability by not changing anything and letting everyone get on with it and get to know each other. Which I'm all for as long as subtle changes are made where necessary.

[achilles]

Personally I think we play better with a three man midfield, and Onomah's one of the best three currently at the club. I'd like to see O'Hare and Grealish play more, but really it's Snodgrass and Adomah, that they're competing with, unless we play 442 or 441.

It was interesting to see on Saturday when Grealish came on that he went to the left wing, with Adomah switching to the right but Grealish didn't stay there very long before switching to a more central position and Onomah playing on the left hand side. I thought that was great as Grealish actually had our one and only shot on goal when he did this but then they reverted back to the positions Bruce wanted them to play and it was back to normal. Onomah playing in Whelan's position might be a revelation, we will never know and then Grealish taking Onomah's place as the attacking central midfield player, the number 10 role. Grealish provides that unpredictability that we currently lack, especially without Kodjia who was the expert at unpredictability but again Grealish is seen as a left winger which is ridiculous as he has no pace and he is hardly ever going to put a cross into the box. It is all very frustrating as basically nothing will change, no wonder other teams know how we are going to play it is all so bleeding obvious.

We all know the problem lies with Bruce as he will not take a chance but prefers to be steady and grind out results and hope that is enough.

[FoxyAV]

Personally I think we play better with a three man midfield, and Onomah's one of the best three currently at the club. I'd like to see O'Hare and Grealish play more, but really it's Snodgrass and Adomah, that they're competing with, unless we play 442 or 441.

It was interesting to see on Saturday when Grealish came on that he went to the left wing, with Adomah switching to the right but Grealish didn't stay there very long before switching to a more central position and Onomah playing on the left hand side. I thought that was great as Grealish actually had our one and only shot on goal when he did this but then they reverted back to the positions Bruce wanted them to play and it was back to normal. Onomah playing in Whelan's position might be a revelation, we will never know and then Grealish taking Onomah's place as the attacking central midfield player, the number 10 role. Grealish provides that unpredictability that we currently lack, especially without Kodjia who was the expert at unpredictability but again Grealish is seen as a left winger which is ridiculous as he has no pace and he is hardly ever going to put a cross into the box. It is all very frustrating as basically nothing will change, no wonder other teams know how we are going to play it is all so bleeding obvious.

We all know the problem lies with Bruce as he will not take a chance but prefers to be steady and grind out results and hope that is enough.

And yet Bruce's grand plan was to have Grealish play behind Kodjia in a 4-4-1-1. I don't see what's changed, we don't appear to be playing any differently to how we did when Kodjia was fit so why not give Grealish a go in his natural number 10 role behind Davis?

What is going on that makes Bruce look at a natural number 10 and stick him on the bench, have a defensive midfielder doing a bad job where Grealish should be and keep playing a very poor defensive midfielder with no pace in the position Onomah should be taking? One of the players (Hourihane) he's actually bought (as opposed to borrowed) is doing an excellent job, so what if Whelan, Lansbury, Hogan and Elmo have all failed to work the way Bruce wants them to play or it's transpired aren't as good as other players we already had?

Thinking about it I'd be amazed if Xia trusted Bruce with any money at all in January, it has to be six-month loans and whoever takes over from Bruce at the end of the season gets to work out who gets sold and who works in their system.

[DelboyVilla]

How many loans are we allowed as we have 3 already don't we?

[achilles]

How many loans are we allowed as we have 3 already don't we?

How many loan players can a Championship side have?

Clubs are allowed to have eight players on loan, but can only field a maximum of five loan signings in any one game.

They can only sign a maximum of four players from a specific club, of which only two can be over the age of 23.

Here are the official EFL rules:
52.4.1 A maximum of 5 Players registered on a Temporary Loan Transfer can be named in the Players listed on a team sheet for any individual match played under the auspices of The League. This maximum shall reduce to 4 Players where a Club names a Player on the team sheet who is registered on an Emergency Goalkeeper Loan; and

52.4.2 No Club may sign more than 4 Players on a Temporary Loan Transfer from another Club (or club) in any Season, of which no more than 2 Players may be over the age of 23. The deadline for determining a Player’s age in this respect shall be as at the 30th June prior to the Season in which the Temporary Loan Transfer is intended to take place. Any Temporary Loan Transfer which subsequently becomes a permanent transfer (which can occur any time during the period of the Temporary Loan Transfer) shall not count against a Club’s quota of such Temporary Loan Transfers for that Season.

When can loan signings be made?
The EFL scrapped the emergency loan system last season, meaning that loan deals can only be struck during the summer or January transfer window. This means moves will either be six-month or season-long deals.

Any recall clauses only apply to season-long loans, and can only be activated in the January window .

[DelboyVilla]

Thanks @achilles

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