Aston Villa v Watford Saturday 28th November 2015

At the moment we need to be able to worry defenders.

What worries defenders?

Pace, movement, aerial threat.

Adama, Sinclair, Ayew, Rudy.

Front 4. Build a team round that.

Adama is still extremely raw and, despite being built like a brick shit-house, seems very easy to push off the ball.

Sinclair tends to go missing during games (I was barely aware of him being on the pitch in the first half against Watford).

Ayew has the potential but is let down by those around him.

Rudy...I'm struggling to see what he offers.

For me the answer lies in having a new striker (loan or permanent) play alongside Ayew with Gil sitting in the hole behind them. Quite why he gets shoved out wide is beyond me. He doesn't ping balls into the box and he offers Hutton no protection so why use him there?

------Ayew------New Striker--------
------------------Gil------------------
Winger-----------------------Winger
--------------Sanchez----------------
Left back---CB---Richards---Hutton
--------------New GK----------------

Trotters wrote:Sinclair tends to go missing during games (I was barely aware of him being on the pitch in the first half against Watford).

I think this is a bit unfair on Sinclair (see also Grealish against Everton, ignoring the defending and post-match shenanigans). Without Amavi we have no attacking avenue down the left anymore. All our attacks come through Hutton, Gil and Veretout, or through the middle from Sanchez and Richards or from a long ball from Guzan. It's as if Richardson has been told to concentrate on being a LB rather than trying to bring the ball forward (or be a CB, which is often where he's caught out of position).

Cissokho I thought was a decent defender but was no good at all going forward (used to take an extra touch rather than bang in the ball when we were on a break, which often lost us the surprise and allowed the opposition to regain their composure). Bennett is good going forward but I don't know how he looks as a defender, since he hasn't played for us in the League for so long. Nice goal in pre-season though.

To look at it another way, Hutton is currently one of our most important attacking players. I would prefer to see Traore on the right because he is an unknown quantity to - and terrorises - the opposition, gets us all excited and gives us glimmers of hope in a very depressing season, puts in some fantastic crosses and looks like he could have some fun with Ayew, Gil and our new striker (whoever he is) coming in January. Gil is not a right winger and should be in the middle of the pitch ahead of Sanchez.

FoxyAV wrote:

Trotters wrote:Sinclair tends to go missing during games (I was barely aware of him being on the pitch in the first half against Watford).

I think this is a bit unfair on Sinclair (see also Grealish against Everton, ignoring the defending and post-match shenanigans). Without Amavi we have no attacking avenue down the left anymore. All our attacks come through Hutton, Gil and Veretout, or through the middle from Sanchez and Richards or from a long ball from Guzan. It's as if Richardson has been told to concentrate on being a LB rather than trying to bring the ball forward (or be a CB, which is often where he's caught out of position).

Cissokho I thought was a decent defender but was no good at all going forward (used to take an extra touch rather than bang in the ball when we were on a break, which often lost us the surprise and allowed the opposition to regain their composure). Bennett is good going forward but I don't know how he looks as a defender, since he hasn't played for us in the League for so long. Nice goal in pre-season though.

To look at it another way, Hutton is currently one of our most important attacking players. I would prefer to see Traore on the right because he is an unknown quantity to - and terrorises - the opposition, gets us all excited and gives us glimmers of hope in a very depressing season, puts in some fantastic crosses and looks like he could have some fun with Ayew, Gil and our new striker (whoever he is) coming in January. Gil is not a right winger and should be in the middle of the pitch ahead of Sanchez.

Always like your posts Foxy - in my head I hope that you're actually Tom Fox & you'll be whispering words into Remi's ear...

What frustrated me against Watford especially was seeing Richards drive forward again and again, running past players like they weren't there. Yet, for some reason, Richardson can't do this. Nor can many/most of the others. Hutton can and does. So why is it that two defenders are willing and able to surge forward yet our midfield fanny about passing it to death instead of actually having a go?

Now to Clark; what a mess of a footballer he has become. To use Hutton again, when there's a challenge to be made that's 70/30 against him, he makes it 50/50. When it's 50/50, he usually wins. Clark though is the opposite. Most 50/50 stuff he loses. There was a foot race in the Watford game that was very slightly in his favour I thought. But his lack of pace brought it back to a 50/50 yet he dropped back without making a challenge. Outrageous!

Then there was Deeney's goal. Just what the fuck was Clark thinking? And it was Clark's fault that Hutton stabbed into his own net as he was desperately trying to cover.

Honestly, the lad has one blinding game every ten that makes me think he's the next big thing but then the other 9 he becomes a ball-watching, lolloping, clueless little girl. 

We've a team of too many "decent" players. "Decent" players belong in the championship. The premier league are for exceptional players and Clark just ain't one.

I was actually thinking at half time on Saturday, that this might be a game for Bacuna out wide right. Their full backs were there to be got at and the added bonus of so many balls breaking to the edge of their box was made for his talents

Trotters wrote:What frustrated me against Watford especially was seeing Richards drive forward again and again, running past players like they weren't there.

Okore does this.

Shame he also plays on the right side!

Hmm, Okore in Sanchez's position and Sanchez in Clark's position, with Clark at LB?

FoxyAV wrote:

Trotters wrote:What frustrated me against Watford especially was seeing Richards drive forward again and again, running past players like they weren't there.

Okore does this.

Shame he also plays on the right side!

Hmm, Okore in Sanchez's position and Sanchez in Clark's position, with Clark at LB?

Paper reports this morning seem to indicate that Garde is thinking of shaking things up, so we could see something radical.

A friend with a season ticket at Brighton tells me Bennett was very good going forward but not so hot in defence. He says they'd have been happy keeping him but he's not sure he's of Premier League standard (insert many jokes here!). So we have Bennett who can't defend and Cissokho who can't attack.

I'm still thinking we would work a little better as a 4-3-3, with Sanchez (or Okore!) in the middle and Veretout and Gueye alongside, with an attacking force of Ayew plus two others (Grealish and Gil?). That would separate defence and attack, so whoever plays on the left doesn't have to both try to attack and cover our LB. I thought Gueye looked good there, he seems to be anonymous in the middle of a line of four, and it would give us more of an attacking presence.

Of course the other option is to have three at the back with Okore in the middle. With Sanchez in front of him it would allow Clark and Richards to cover their sides better, and Richardson would be much more effective as a wing back. We're all agreed he's not a defender but he doesn't look bad as a left sided midfielder. Hutton or Bacuna on the right. Even with Gueye and Veretout in the middle we'd have room for Ayew and Gestede, or Ayew and Gil.

I have followed Clark since the reserves and always thought he would make it.
Unfortunately I am going to have to accept that he just isn't going to be good enough.
The third goal was Sunday league stuff, absolutely pathetic, Deeney just wanted it more which is disgraceful and Clark should hold his head in shame. The second goal, Clark just got in the bloody way doing nothing of any use!

Richards doesn't help though, he is not disciplined enough for centre half, perfect for right back but that is not too much of a problem as Hutton is one of our better players. However could we play Richards instead of Sanchez just in front of the defence, he would certainly provide our midfield with some required energy?

However our main problem, beside the obvious one of a striker, is the left back position because Richardson is just totally and utterly useless and teams will exploit this weakness. To me this just highlights how poor our squad is because we have nobody to replace him! We are going to have to put a square peg into a round hole for this one and just hope we find a solution at least till January!

achilles wrote:However our main problem, beside the obvious one of a striker, is the left back position because Richardson is just totally and utterly useless and teams will exploit this weakness. To me this just highlights how poor our squad is because we have nobody to replace him! We are going to have to put a square peg into a round hole for this one and just hope we find a solution at least till January!

We already have a square peg in a round hole, Richardson is not a defender, he's a midfielder. We've consistently had problems playing players out of position. Gabby is not a centre forward, he's played best in Grealish's position on the left. Bacuna meanwhile is not a defender, he's a midfielder. If Gueye and Veretout are both right sided it might be a contributing factor to all our attacks going down the right side of the pitch. Having said that I thought in a 4-3-3 Gueye looked good on the left.

I know I posted earlier that Okore could play in Sanchez's position, Sanchez in Clark's position and Clark at LB, and it was only slightly tongue in cheek. Clark could play LB and can go forward, while also having a pretty accurate pass (and long ball) on him. Whether he could mix it with Grealish, Sinclair and Ayew up front is another question. Okore like Richards likes to surge forward and looks pretty good when he does so. He's also a good defender (and I think his headed goal ended our goal drought last season). Sanchez had a go next to Richards in LB (was that in a friendly) and I suppose I'd rather see Lescott there than him, but could Sanchez go there, or could Illori come in, or Crespo?

Whatever, I reckon Clark is our best candidate out of our current players for LB, without having seen Illori. So who to put next to Richards?

Sums up our transfer/loan policy does Illori, still never seen him, so why?

I'm afraid I don't understand the obsession with 433. We've played it for 5 years and look where it's got us!

Agree the defence needs shoring up, last season Okore and Clark played well together, at the moment nobody in our defence is playing together, all waiting on somebody else to tackle, get the ball, go for the header,it's Sod's law we get a decent LB, and he is out for the season, I am sure that Garde will mix it up for the next game. Good luck, the fitness of the team needs improvement. Some were gone after 60 minutes.

mefromhere wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand the obsession with 433. We've played it for 5 years and look where it's got us!

Hoofball for a large amount of that. Do you think 4-1-4-1 is working, and do you think we have the players to make it work, with the issues we have down the left side?

Army villain wrote:Agree the defence needs shoring up, last season Okore and Clark played well together, at the moment nobody in our defence is playing together, all waiting on somebody else to tackle, get the ball, go for the header,it's Sod's law we get a decent LB, and he is out for the season, I am sure that Garde will mix it up for the next game. Good luck, the fitness of the team needs improvement. Some were gone after 60 minutes.

There is absolutely no excuse for this, didn't anybody at the club ask the basic questions as to what the previous coaching staff actually did... and then for their incompetence they get a pay off?

FoxyAV wrote:

mefromhere wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand the obsession with 433. We've played it for 5 years and look where it's got us!

Hoofball for a large amount of that. Do you think 4-1-4-1 is working, and do you think we have the players to make it work, with the issues we have down the left side?

We need 2 up front. We need to keep possession high up the pitch and Ayew can't do it on his own. Get somebody with him, hold it up for longer, get midfield players supporting and we can start to create solid chances.

Anything where the last number is a 1 and we're only ever playing on the counter.

Need width and strike partnership to have any chance. Move Clark to LB and Okore CB. Sinclair is a solid worker down the left and Adama down the right. Whether he is good enough with the ball or not there isn't a single Left Back in the league that would want to play against him

4-3-3 works, but only if your central midfielders make runs forward when in possession.  Delph and Cleverley were starting to do that near the end of last season under Sherwood (FA Cup Semi against Liverpool was the prime example) and we looked very dangerous going forward.  The problem is that our 3 central midfielders either do it themselves or are instructed to stay back and not venture forward when we have the ball.  When they sit back, it isolates our striker and wingers and they are either double/triple teamed and have to pass the ball backward.  

Our formation is not the problem at the moment.  Our problem is that we severely lack quality in our defense right now.  Watford walked through our back line like they were a pub team time and time again on Saturday.  We have a Championship quality left back, at the very best, who doesn't have the pace, awareness, or ability going forward to make an impact in the Premier League.  On the right side, Hutton is also showing he isn't good enough for us either.  He makes solid runs forward, but he can't cross a ball to save his life, and his defending is extremely suspect.  Our Central Defenders are a mess.  Richards is physically a beast.  He has the strength, pace, and aerial ability of a world class defender, but his positioning and decision making is downright awful at times, and as a result, we give away cheap goals.  Finally, Clark is incredibly inconsistent.  He'll look solid as a rock one game and then follow it up with a calamitous performance.  We don't have the players to come in and make a difference.  Okore?  He's been out for a long time.  Lescott?  He has lost a lot of pace and doesn't look like the player he used to be.  Senderos?  He isn't even in our 25 man squad and hasn't played a competitive match in over a year.  Crespo?  Like most players coming to the EPL from La Liga, he looks like he's struggling with the pace and physicality of the league, judging by his performances for us so far.  Bacuna?  He'll give us better crossing than Hutton, but even worse defending.  I don't know how we're going to fix this until January, and by that point, we might be as good as relegated.

KMitch wrote:4-3-3 works, but only if your central midfielders make runs forward when in possession.  Delph and Cleverley were starting to do that near the end of last season under Sherwood (FA Cup Semi against Liverpool was the prime example) and we looked very dangerous going forward.  The problem is that our 3 central midfielders either do it themselves or are instructed to stay back and not venture forward when we have the ball.  When they sit back, it isolates our striker and wingers and they are either double/triple teamed and have to pass the ball backward.  

Our formation is not the problem at the moment.  Our problem is that we severely lack quality in our defense right now.  Watford walked through our back line like they were a pub team time and time again on Saturday.  We have a Championship quality left back, at the very best, who doesn't have the pace, awareness, or ability going forward to make an impact in the Premier League.  On the right side, Hutton is also showing he isn't good enough for us either.  He makes solid runs forward, but he can't cross a ball to save his life, and his defending is extremely suspect.  Our Central Defenders are a mess.  Richards is physically a beast.  He has the strength, pace, and aerial ability of a world class defender, but his positioning and decision making is downright awful at times, and as a result, we give away cheap goals.  Finally, Clark is incredibly inconsistent.  He'll look solid as a rock one game and then follow it up with a calamitous performance.  We don't have the players to come in and make a difference.  Okore?  He's been out for a long time.  Lescott?  He has lost a lot of pace and doesn't look like the player he used to be.  Senderos?  He isn't even in our 25 man squad and hasn't played a competitive match in over a year.  Crespo?  Like most players coming to the EPL from La Liga, he looks like he's struggling with the pace and physicality of the league, judging by his performances for us so far.  Bacuna?  He'll give us better crossing than Hutton, but even worse defending.  I don't know how we're going to fix this until January, and by that point, we might be as good as relegated.

My argument for 4-3-3 is to put an extra layer of players between the opposition and our defence. As it stands, we have a pretty strong backbone of Gueye, Veretout and Sanchez, which pushes attacks out wide where we're vulnerable. We don't seem to be able to attack down the left, probably because Richardson (not a Championship level defender, a midfielder played out of position) has been told to hang back since half the time he's missing when we're under attack. Meanwhile Ayew looks isolated anyway when he's playing as the striker on his own up front, I thought he looked better playing on the right. We need a better version of Ayew in the middle though. Kozak scored in the U21 last night and had a few other chances, he's the only option for now unless we want to build the team around Gestede (and it was interesting to see Traore play with Kozak). The only issue here is Traore and Gil don't fit in a 4-3-3 with Ayew on the right, assuming Sanchez sits in the middle of the three midfielders. On the other hand, we don't need to play 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 through the whole match, it's possible to switch depending on how the game is going. We have an abundance of left sided attacking players, with Sinclair, Grealish and Gabby to choose from. No, I don't want to see us return to the counter attacking football so beloved of Paul Lambert, but it would be nice to think it was an option for Guzan when he gets the ball, and we've seen it start to happen once or twice since Garde has come in. Gil against ManC for example.

Lambert's 4-3-3 with 30-35% possession, home or away, was so easy for opposition teams to play. Double mark Benteke, don't commit too many players forward. Sherwood meanwhile opted for surprise by never fielding the same team or using the same formation twice. Lambert substituted players at 60 minutes on the dot, Sherwood didn't bother. Isn't there room for some flexibility, where one or two substitutions can change the formation to suit the match, to make us more aggressive or defensive? I've changed my mind about Sanchez, he has to start matches ahead of our defence, since they need all the help they can get (and the 4-1-4-1 formation is perfect for him). We do miss Westwood's distribution though, and since Sanchez runs out of puff after about 60 or 70 minutes (mainly because he'd doing so much work) we don't have the option anymore of starting Westwood and substituting him with Sanchez. We don't have anyone to replace Sanchez with though!

We can do sod all about the players we have, we can't do anything at all until January and there's a possibility Lerner will shut up shop and decide not to pump in more money when in all liklihood we'll be relegated. So for now there's no point bemoaning our terrible defence. Garde said he'll be looking mixing it all up anyway. Kinsella played last night, he's a 20-year-old LB.

Looks like Garde is going to try to make our players fit into a 4-1-4-1 regardless, so all of this is fairly pointless.

And we did score a couple of goals against Watford, let's hope Ayew at the very least is up for the Southampton match. I hope so, it's going to be the first time I'll get to see a match this season!

I just watched the highlights on AVTV, that free kick was excellent. No thumping the ball into the wall, some intelligence in play and a cracking header from Richards. That's definitely Garde right there. Ayew had some very good attempts and one very nice goal. He hit the bar before a corner was ordered to be retaken and is looking like the player Sherwood didn't know he had when he started Gabby in all those matches earlier in the season.

Watford's first goal came from a series of lucky breaks and their second was good fortune for them again. Bearing in mind how well we attacked their goal and this was Garde's third match, I'm feeling optimistic about the Saints match, especially if Richardson isn't at LB.

Richardson definitely wants dropping.

FoxyAV wrote:I just watched the highlights on AVTV, that free kick was excellent. No thumping the ball into the wall, some intelligence in play and a cracking header from Richards. That's definitely Garde right there. Ayew had some very good attempts and one very nice goal. He hit the bar before a corner was ordered to be retaken and is looking like the player Sherwood didn't know he had when he started Gabby in all those matches earlier in the season.

Watford's first goal came from a series of lucky breaks and their second was good fortune for them again. Bearing in mind how well we attacked their goal and this was Garde's third match, I'm feeling optimistic about the Saints match, especially if Richardson isn't at LB.

This. I'm starting to think that their is some progress definitely being made. I wondered if maybe it might be worth moving Richardson into a left midfield position and putting kinsella behind him for the saints game, depending on what formation we go with? As for the rest of the back 4, I'd keep Hutton in there but would partner Richards with Okore.

Okore is quite quick across the ground so if Richards does lose his positioning or needs to help Hutton out then he'll cover for him. Equally he's fast enough to get out and help at LB. 

Clark at LB? He can't go forward but Richardson can't defend and that's more important! Then solve the problem properly in January. I actually think our midfield is fine, and Ayew is coming on game-by-game. We need to solve AT LEAST 2 out of 3 of these problem areas - LB, striker, goalie

I like Okore a great deal but there is problem with him that some of the pundits flagged up, I think during the Cup Final. It was the fact that he wasn't looking around him when the attacks were coming in and consequently didn't have a fucking clue where anybody was outside his direct line of sight.

It's not something I'd noticed but when it was being shown the issues it was causing were glaringly obvious. That's not in any way blaming him alone for the loss, the whole team and Sherwood stank out Wembley that day.

Thing is, what I don't know is was this just the reaction of a player slightly overawed by being involved in a major event or has he been playing with that flaw all along? If it's the latter the staff won't have had much opportunity to coach it out of his game, he's not been playing and the staff have changed. If that's what he is doing I'm bothered about him taking that lack of awareness into our already shit, naive defence.

Strong and athletic he most certainly is but we need real nous in there. We won't get it before January so I suppose the question is should Okore take somebody's place? I was fucked off at Clark getting dropped by Deeney for his goal but who's to say Okore would have been anywhere near him to do better anyway?

I don't know the answer but Remi must make changes at the back, especially Richardson and Clark. Who to put in there place is another matter but that is the challenge Garde is paid to overcome, hopefully he has some magic he can weave.

Don't forget that Okore was playing injured for the last month or so desperate to keep us up. An injury so bad the surgery has kept him out for 6 months since!

Richards and Okore are definitely our best partnership there.