Re: The Steve Bruce thread

by achilles Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:17 pm

FoxyAV wrote:Ha, I posted a link to that feature a month ago and said what a good read it was. It's a cracking article - well presented and well researched.

On another note I read that Bruce was unaware we were signing Moreira, which is excellent news. On the one hand someone could well be advising on buying players good for the team and club and on the other it gives Bruce some new players to blame when it doesn't work out for him.

Sorry mate, totally overlooked! The Steve Bruce thread - Page 27 4107169167

by FoxyAV Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

achilles wrote:
FoxyAV wrote:Ha, I posted a link to that feature a month ago and said what a good read it was. It's a cracking article - well presented and well researched.

On another note I read that Bruce was unaware we were signing Moreira, which is excellent news. On the one hand someone could well be advising on buying players good for the team and club and on the other it gives Bruce some new players to blame when it doesn't work out for him.

Sorry mate, totally overlooked!

Don't worry, I wasn't having a dig, great minds think alike!

by FoxyAV Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:50 pm

A very apt description, albeit presumably a typo!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/championship-team-team-guide-stoke-13002815

"Bruce is a grind master in this division."

by DelboyVilla Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:39 pm

What is amazing to me is that Bruce has this reputation of being the master of promotion from this division yet he has never once got promoted in top spot and scraped going up by the skin of his teeth?

Henry must be pissing himself watching Bruce go after the same players ever window usually based on a decent performance against one of his teams! Bruce has zero imagination on transfers and this is mirrored in his team selection/tactics (I say tactics with my tongue firmly in my cheek)!

Roll on 10 games in and opening up the new manager thread!

by big ming Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:17 am

Three points off the pace and behind the noses already, Bruce out!!

by **De Kuip** Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:52 pm

I've pinched this from another villa forum which I never do usually but it did make.me laugh....
https://youtu.be/YCQCJe0ue08

by VTID85 Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:43 pm

De Kuip wrote:I've pinched this from another villa forum which I never do usually but it did make.me laugh....
https://youtu.be/YCQCJe0ue08

That is fantastic.

by DelboyVilla Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:59 pm

To much hoof pinball last night for my liking and I want to see Bruce stop this as we were just handing back possession all the time?

by **De Kuip** Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:46 am

Have to be happy with 6 points out of 6, and I'm sure we will get 2 or 3 strengthening loans in as well.

But I'm calling it right now - looking at our 2 performances there is no way I believe we will go up with Bruce in charge.

There are things he's definitely brought - a level of stability and a relationship with Jack that probably helped him stay. He seems a genuine guy and I wish him well but jot as our manager. Still think he is a dinosaur that plays people in the wrong positions and had no idea about progressive modern football.

So Thanks for steadying the ship Steve, but I'd really like to see you go now and allow us to begin the next phase of the AVFC return to glory.

by FoxyAV Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Last season two out of the three promoted teams gained them promotion, not huge bags of money. We lost out because of our manager, having a lot of money's worth of very very good Championship (and some PL and PL quality) players. Had Bruce been at Wolves, Cardiff or Fulham they wouldn't have been promoted. This season Leeds have what looks like a very good manager, Middlesborough are still poking around and both Stoke and West Brom will be trying very hard (and there'll be others, Forest maybe?). We have Bruce and Bruce doesn't learn new tricks. Bruce brought in his old boys and with the exception of Snodgrass they didn't work. I'm still annoyed he broke up a really good central defence partnership by wasting a huge amount of money on Terry and now look where we are, almost losing to Wigan because Bruce wants to play a slow defensive midfielder in central defence instead of one of our two senior central defenders.

by Dazzle Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:33 pm

De Kuip wrote:Have to be happy with 6 points out of 6, and I'm sure we will get 2 or 3 strengthening loans in as well.

But I'm calling it right now - looking at our 2 performances there is no way I believe we will go up with Bruce in charge.

There are things he's definitely brought - a level of stability and a relationship with Jack that probably helped him stay. He seems a genuine guy and I wish him well but jot as our manager. Still think he is a dinosaur that plays people in the wrong positions and had no idea about progressive modern football.

So Thanks for steadying the ship Steve, but I'd really like to see you go now and allow us to begin the next phase of the AVFC return to glory.

I’m sure Bruce will be given until somewhere around end of September, results dependant. If things go wonky before then I will assume the new owners are sharp enough to have someone lined up and step in. I still wouldn’t look any further than Dean Smith unless someone really outstanding was sourced, someone like a Bielsa. I might be alone with this but if I were the owners I wouldn’t let Bruce get Snoddy back, I’d tell him he has to work with Andre Green, the rumour seems to be Snodgrass back on loan with an obligation to buy. I’m not up for that. If Bruce has us sat in the top 2 after 8-10 games then don’t expect change. We’ve done something we haven’t done in the previous two seasons which is to get off with the front runners straight away, and we haven’t yet played particularly well and there will still be players to come in. Whilst not perfect in terms of performance if we win away at the Tractor boys next Saturday the rest of the league will be looking at us and thinking we could be ready to disappear into the distance like wolves last season.

by achilles Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:39 pm

I don't want him sacked now, as it is too disruptive, we have the players to get us promoted in spite of Steve Bruce and his strange and negative tactics.

by FoxyAV Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:58 pm

achilles wrote:I don't want him sacked now, as it is too disruptive, we have the players to get us promoted in spite of Steve Bruce and his strange and negative tactics.

Bruce has already been disruptive - trying a 5-3-2 in pre-season when he knows it doesn't work (you know, rather than getting Chester and Elphick used to playing in the middle together in a back four, with Hutton at LB and De Laet at RB, which is our fall back arrangement if we don't get better players in that them or if anyone gets injured). We know Bjarnason works well at DM and Whelan doesn't. Green can play on the right, Adomah on the left. Why not try sticking with what's worked and augmenting it rather than chucking the whole lot away and trying out some new formations with some new players, just for the hell of it? Bring in the new players, integrate them into the team.

Yet again we wasted pre-season. I suspect it's lucky we played Hull when they were all over the place, and Wigan didn't take their chances. We're lucky to have won the first two matches. I wonder who'll be at CB for the next match, or if we'll have a DM again. Or...

by achilles Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:10 pm

FoxyAV wrote:
achilles wrote:I don't want him sacked now, as it is too disruptive, we have the players to get us promoted in spite of Steve Bruce and his strange and negative tactics.

Bruce has already been disruptive - trying a 5-3-2 in pre-season when he knows it doesn't work (you know, rather than getting Chester and Elphick used to playing in the middle together in a back four, with Hutton at LB and De Laet at RB, which is our fall back arrangement if we don't get better players in that them or if anyone gets injured). We know Bjarnason works well at DM and Whelan doesn't. Green can play on the right, Adomah on the left. Why not try sticking with what's worked and augmenting it rather than chucking the whole lot away and trying out some new formations with some new players, just for the hell of it? Bring in the new players, integrate them into the team.

Yet again we wasted pre-season. I suspect it's lucky we played Hull when they were all over the place, and Wigan didn't take their chances. We're lucky to have won the first two matches. I wonder who'll be at CB for the next match, or if we'll have a DM again. Or...

Whilst I agree with you, the facts and positives are that:
Villa have 6 points from 2 games
We have come from behind twice which shows great character and togetherness and Bjarnason's expression after he scored summed up what it meant.
You can only beat the teams put in front of you so perhaps Hull and Wigan may be viewed as easy but Wigan for one will surprise a few people this season.
We mustn't overlook these facts as they are important

I just don't want to rock the boat, it may be a bit unsteady but it is still going in the right direction in spite of the helmsman!

by Dazzle Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:36 pm

Only some Villa fans can win the opening two games and not be happy and want the manager out!

by FoxyAV Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:59 pm

Dazzle wrote:Only some Villa fans can win the opening two games and not be happy and want the manager out!

Only some Villa fans wanted the manager gone the season before last and the whole of last season too!

by DelboyVilla Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:11 am

I honestly think that the new owners have kept Bruce on because there seemed to be a potential fan backlash if he was sacked? They didn't want to make themselves unpopular within days of taking overand Bruce seems to have a good relationship with the players?

I am hoping what happens is that we get in on loan a LB, CB and striker and that team naturally improves as we play more games. Ideally if Bruce gets us up automatically and then 'decides' to take a break/retire and the new owners can get in a more suitable manager for the Premier League? I can only dream!

by FoxyAV Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:39 am

I would imagine the owners needed more time to evaluate it all and wouldn't have had a replacement in mind let alone in place and ready to go. Bruce was going to cost the same to pay off the moment they bought the club and three months in so it didn't make any sense financially. I don't buy the whole Birmingham Mail poll thing, who'd believe a poll open to everyone with no evidence of participants allegiance? They were much better off allowing Bruce some transfer money and having more of a say in who comes in. It would be interesting to see who scouted McGinn and the two goalies, I thought our scouting operation fell apart last season or have we been keeping an eye on these players for a while?

I wonder how the new owners will proceed though, they have presumably employed advisors who know what they're doing, would they look at how Bruce manages the club and think he's a solid bet to have us promoted or look at clubs with less quality in the squad but managers who know what they're doing (see my previous point about Fulham and Cardiff)? Now's the time to be finding alternative managers in case things don't improve in a couple of months. Sure, we've won two matches but not exactly against tough opposition (well, on paper).

I said it last season and still think it's worth pursuing, Bruce would work well in a more senior role but have someone with tactical nous looking after training, team selection, tactics and in-game changes. Fulham showed there was a different way of doing things last season, can we keep Bruce's relationship with the players and media, contacts at clubs and other positive stuff and bring in someone sharper when it comes to actually getting our players playing football? Probably not!

MOMS has (again) a good article worth reading, essentially on squad rotation, playing players out of position and Bruce learning from his mistakes:

https://www.myoldmansaid.com/steve-bruce-says-hes-learnt-from-mistakes-of-last-season/

Previous Selections
Most of us know the exact point when Villa’s push for automatic promotion fell apart last season. After a physically and mentally draining 4-1 derby win against Wolves, Villa were playing a rearranged game at Villa Park a days later, before a trip up to Bolton at the weekend.

Bruce kept the same Wolves XI for what should have been a routine win against QPR, but after a big win, it’s sometimes hard for players to get mentally psyched up again.

Bruce said it himself.

“From experience, I always feared it might be ‘After the Lord Mayor’s Show’ following the weekend,” reflected Bruce, after the QPR game.

“I toyed and toyed with changing it, making five or six changes, and in hindsight, I should have done.”

Villa were 2-0 down against QPR with barely half-an-hour gone. An obvious change would have been Bjarnason in for Jedinak, who’s no spring chicken now. That would have rested Jedinak for the trip to Bolton, a game in snowy conditions that Bruce then rested the Australian for, when his physicality would have helped Villa big time in the game.

Maybe starting Keinan Davis in the Bolton snow and going more direct would have helped. If he had played Jedinak and Davis in such conditions, it would have helped at set plays too.

Hindsight Regrets
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but judging from Bruce’s comments after those games last season, and after the Wigan game, it’s something he’s obviously been kicking himself about.

“One thing I did do last year was I didn’t think I used the squad well enough at times,” said Bruce, explaining his six changes from the Hull game for the Wigan game.

“I know it’s still early but we’ve got eight games coming up and to get up and running the squad needs to get games under their belt.”

Seeing Mile Jedinak come in for Tommy Elphick, who had a decent enough game against Hull, alongside Chester, seemed to be a change for change’s sake though. With a new keeper coming in, surely having a settled Chester and Elphick combination in front of Nyland would have been the more sensible choice? The two had also played some preseason games together at the back.

“It’s pretty drastic – you could have come in and slaughtered me if it hadn’t worked,” reflected Bruce.

“I’m okay for the moment because we won, but it was a big call because it’s not me.

“I just felt against Wigan we needed to be stronger, and a bit more direct than what we were the other night.”

Question of Jedinak?
Maybe Bruce has learnt from the Bolton game of last season, when Villa could have benefited from more of a physical presence? And that’s why he felt Jedinak was a better option considering Wigan’s set piece threat from their two big centre backs, Cheyenne Dunkley and Cedric Kipre? After all, Jedinak had been a colossus last season in terms of headers won, something the stats backed up every game.

If Bruce is trying to evolve and learn from his mistakes with this Villa team, he will surely think about Jedinak at centre-back though. After the game, Bruce seemed to brush off Jedinak’s poor back pass that led to Wigan’s equaliser, despite it being a carbon copy of one he contributed to Villa blowing a 2-0 lead against Sheffield United last season to draw 2-2.

“It’s a mistake, but one that Mile will forget and he did forget it,” said Bruce.

MOMS was hoping the Aussie would remember it, like he should have remembered the incident against Sheffield United, which might have prevented this Wigan one.

Advantages Over Last Season
It’s going to be an interesting few weeks to see if Bruce has transcended some of his previous thinking and mistakes.

Last season, Bruce had the individuals, with the likes of Robert Snodgrass, John Terry, Albert Adomah and Lewis Grabban, to maybe get the promotion job done, but ultimately he relied too much on them without the context of a team plan.

This season there seems to be more of a team ethic already showing, after two comeback wins showed decent resilience and improved attacking play.

It’s early days yet, but from the look of Grealish and McGinn in the middle of the park, Villa this time round have something they never had last season, a real heart to the team.

It’s now up to Bruce to build a body around this Villa heart to sustain it and allow it to beat freely. And this may mean ditching some of the conservatism that has hindered his decisions in the past.

UTV

by **De Kuip** Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:32 am

Dazzle wrote:Only some Villa fans can win the opening two games and not be happy and want the manager out!

I know and I actually felt bad typing it but I can't help how I feel and anyone reading my posts from last season will see how much I never wanted him, regardless of results.

by big ming Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:51 am

Seems like a top bloke and you can see why he is popular with the players. The problem is that his selections,formations and tactics leave most of us completely bemused.
Still, we are where we are so hope he keeps winning.

by smetro Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:06 pm

I expect to see the name of Brendan Rogers linked more and more.

by **De Kuip** Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 pm

Especially as celtic bombed out of the CL.as well.

Still, at least he would get to manage McGinn after all.

by big ming Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:26 am

For the avoidance of doubt, I contend that we have won our first three competitive games this season despite Bruce and not because of him. His selections and set up are truly mystifying.

by achilles Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:37 am

big ming wrote:For the avoidance of doubt, I contend that we have won our first three competitive games this season despite Bruce and not because of him. His selections and set up are truly mystifying.

The sheer quality of the players in the squad continually rescue Bruce from his own inadequacies!

by Dazzle Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:28 pm

smetro wrote:
I expect to see the name of Brendan Rogers linked more and more.

I’d been thinking along these lines myself. Sometimes all the ingredients just happen to come together at the right time, I think one or two more pieces align and it’d make sense. He can’t do anything more with Celtic than has been achieved, and he definitely has unfinished business in English football. For me he could be the right fit for Villa at the right time. Unfortunately I think Villa would have to have a few adverse results for the owners to have the confidence that sacking Bruce would be widely enough backed, and if we are still sailing along with wins then it’d be a brave man to make a change.

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