Re: Bruce stays or Bruce goes. All in here thread.

[De Kuip]

I'm really torn on this topic.
On one hand I really, really want to see continuity at this club and we've got rid of managers because we've been nosediving, I can't think it's a good move to get rid because we're bang average. We have to be seen as a club that doesn't keep spinning the managerial wheel because we're not getting instant success. So for those reasons,  and for the need to give SB further goes in the transfer market so he really is using his players from 1-11.
But - and this is the struggle for me - the football is crap,  the tactics are a puzzle, the team selections and substitutions drive me mad, and to be honest I'm finding it harder to drive a 400 mile round trip to watch what he serves up. So on balance I think we stick, but I say that through gritted teeth and the conviction we won't go up next season unless something seismic happens to our football on the pitch.

[smetro]

I just don't see a foreign coach being the cure for all ills.

Well you wouldn't of course because you don't appear to like foreign managers. But the fact is in the current top seven teams FIVE of them have foreign managers...so why couldn't it work at Villa?

Bruce may fail in due course. But I don't think that sacking him now because you think he might fail in the future is a good move.

Well tbh he's already failed at his first task. He came in and the task was simple..get us into the play-off positions. So in that regard he hasn't shown us that there should be any faith in him moving forward imo.

I also don't think you're going get expansive football in the championship - well not to any great extent.

Have you seen Fulham? Huddersfield? Reading? Brentford? They all play that way.

If we could get a top notch foreign coach then I wouldn't be against it. If we could lure benitez or someone of his calibre then yes - but another punt on another Remi Garde type then absolutely not.
Its your call - but I wouldn't drum out a manager with 4 very recent promotions on his CV -after less than one season - especially with no one obvious in mind - but like I say its your right to hold such an opinion if you believe thats the way forward

[deadbuzzardalive]

Two of Bruces promotions came over ten years ago and the Championship has moved on since then in terms of what it takes to get out of the division, in fact you could even say it's moved on since Bruce got Hull promoted last year through the play-offs, with the arrival of managers like Wagner, Staam, Monk and Benitez, and It will only move on further in the summer when more teams will be looking to make similar appointments, in an attempt to emulate their success.

Interestingly Keegan, Bryan Robson, Peter Reid, Coppell, Curbishley, Jewell, Allardyce, Megson, Redknapp, McCarthy, Warnock, Holloway and Dyche, are the other thirteen managers who've had more than one promotion from the Championship, despite their previous success I can't imagine that any clubs with promotion aspirations would be keen on that lot, with the excpetion of Allardyce and Dyche, neither of whom I think are what Villa need (albeit I don't know a great deal about the way Dyche sets up teams so maybe I'm being hasty in that judgement).

For me next year we have to be aiming for automatic promotion and Bruce hasn't shown anything to convince me he's capable of getting us challenging anywhere near that. If we play like we've been playing this year we'll be nowhere near.

[deadbuzzardalive]

I've just seen some stats posted on another forum, I don't know if they're accurate, but if they are, then perhaps they're something to give those doubting Bruce a bit of hope...

'His Hull side were in 2015/16.

3rd highest in the league for possession (53%)
4th highest scorers (69)
3rd fewest goals conceded (35)
1st for pass success rate (78%)
1st for most shots per game (16)
1st for most passes per game (480)
1st for most key passes per game (12)'

Obviously he had completely different players, but does seem to indicate that he can get a team playing to a certain degree (although to counter that , I do remember reading a Hull forum at the time and they were moaning about his negative football).

There is the Phelan factor as well, how much of a role did he play in the above stats and can Bruce do it without him, perhaps to stand a chance in the Championship as it is today, we should be looking to bring him in, in the summer (if as I expect Bruce stays).

All that said I think the biggest barometer that we can measure Bruce with, is how he's performed so far at this club,as managing us, especially under the current circumstances requires a different skillset than to managing Hull.

[Trotters]

Just noticed i'm still classed as a new member even though i joined in 2014... at what stage does this change??

Hi mate - I've had a look at how to change things but not 100% sure and I don't want to mess something up behind the scenes,  so I'll leave to trotters to sort. I'll make sure he tells me how so I can do in future. Not sure if it's tied into dates or number of posts tbh.

Probably badly worded. Sorry. But your ranking is automatically tied to posts:
New Member: 0-499 posts
Member: 500-2499 posts
Premium Member: 2500-4999 posts
Post Whore: 5000+ posts

[The Utterer]

I am of the opinion that we are merely seeing a team that was set up to avoid a relegation scrap again. Bruce knows that we made a humungous error in January by having way too many in comings and outgoings which put us in a very precarious position and led to that horrid losing streak which he struggled to stop actually, but stop it he did & that was a tough job, especially when you consider the deeply engrained losing mentality that was already prevalent amongst most of the playing staff from last season.

I actually think that with some more work on the squad and most importantly of all, time for Bruce and the new coaches to actually work with them over a full pre season, we will see a different animal next time out.

I also am intrigued to see what he can produce at a club such as ours which with all due respect to the other clubs he's managed, and in his own words, is the biggest club he has had an opportunity at. I don't forget that he was well groomed under one of the games greats and i just wonder, if given time, he can produce his best ever team with the resources we have.

I also think continuity is a key thing which we have not had in decades. All the great teams have it. Liverpool of the 70's & 80's, Man U under Fergie (which SB will be well aware of having been a part of it) and even teams like Arsenal under Wenger etc etc. You do not see these teams changing all the time.

If you look at Man U as a decent example look what happened when Fergie left & disruption to the management happened...They still haven't recovered even now and that is the wealthiest club in the World!

But what about united NOW? Moyes? Van gaal and now Mourinho!!..you call that continuity?

You completely missed my point here, What i'm saying is Utd are only just clinging to the chance of scraping into the top 4 STILL even with having had some of the Worlds top coaches trying to sort it out & spending zillions on top players. For them that is crap! A direct result of losing their previous continuity under Fergie when they were winning the title amongst many other trophies for over a decade! Evidence surely that chopping and changing impacts on things. To have the richest club in the World not even qualifying for the Champs league is by their standards awful.

What about Chelsea?

Chelsea have changed manager a few times but have largely kept the continuity going on the playing side. We have had what 30+ ins and outs just over the last two windows? This makes it, in my opinion, impossible to make a fair judgement on a manager whoever he is. I seriously doubt Chelsea would be at the top had they changed the team AND managers as often as we have. Also swapping between the Worlds best coaches and having several of the Worlds best players as a constant helps!

City? Watford? etc etc.

Again with City's resources and playing staff they will always be there or abouts regardless who is the manager. I would still argue that changing manager regularly as they have done is the reason they are only 4th which for me is poor with the players & resources they have. Again as with Chelsea, their key players have remained a constant too. Silva, Aguero etc.  As for Watford well i'm not really up with their story so can't really comment.

The continuity argument is only valid when the masses can see something decent on the horizon. But right now many don't because Bruce is a leopard who will not change his spots. And I don't buy this "pre-season" excuses. What's he gonna do that's so different from now? Tell them to play Tikki Takka? By season's end he will have had almost a whole season with the players, so if he isn't getting his ideas across now then when will he?

Currently i don't like the football i'm seeing either, but what i meant is there are still lots of unknowns brought about by circumstance. Our massive changes to the playing staff last summer and again in Jan, a ridiculous swath of injuries for a while, constant changing of the team, a bit of misfortune here & there amidst several very poor decisions by officials (that's the same for most teams i guess but it still doesn't help). Some mistakes by Bruce for sure in amongst that i've no doubt.

As for his "Style" well i just don't think we have actually seen it yet as we have surely seen a coping mechanism to get urgent result as we plummeted like a stone after the chaos in Jan followed by a dearth of injuries. If it doesn't improve then believe me i'll be jumping in the exact same boat as you though  

If people think that somehow we're gonna see a dramatic change next season under this manager and coaches then they will be in for a rude awakening imo. Calderwood and Clemence are typical British coaches, they aren't gonna do anything new and neither is Bruce. The only hope is getting some better quality in the hope that his "score and then defend for your lives" tactics can garner a few more results than they have already which might be enough for the play-offs. But automatic? Not for me.

This of course is an unknown, i guess i would just like to see whether or not it does change with a bit of a more settled environment or not. If it doesn't then we need a change of course but how will we know otherwise? I would hate to just throw everything up in the air yet again because thats what this club has done repeatedly for decades and where has it gotten us?!

Heck we even did it after winning the title & European cup....that turned out well didn't it!  

I just want to see continuity given a chance for once to see if it works. 2/3 rds of a season with over 30 changes to the playing & coaching staff is impossible to judge in any way shape or form. Maybe Bruce is the wrong guy but under the last manager we were on a road to nowhere fast and had it continued we would likely be scrapping for survival now. As it is we are calmly sat in midtable with just a Local derby to negotiate. With all things considered and after the atrocious season we had last time out that'll do for now.

If we start off crap next season then that's different of course.

[DelboyVilla]

Up until a few weeks ago I was in the keep Bruce camp but having watched the awful displays of late I am starting to have huge doubts as to whether this is just too big a job for SB?

I wonder if Ranieri would be interested as he seems adept at taking a side and getting the best out of what he has got?

[smetro]

Up until a few weeks ago I was in the keep Bruce camp but having watched the awful displays of late I am starting to have huge doubts as to whether this is just too big a job for SB?

I wonder if Ranieri would be interested as he seems adept at taking a side and getting the best out of what he has got?

Post in a nutshell:-

You have doubts - I think most of us do, do you follow that with, at this point in time changing the manager ? - Your suggestion of Ranieri highlights the massive gamble of replacing Bruce now. Personally I think Ranieri would be a disastrous appointment, Id give Bruce a while longer. His points haul since taking over gets us play offs next season - throw in a decent keeper and who knows.
I think we have to wait for Bruce to fail - rather than making a preemptive strike now.

[deadbuzzardalive]

I think I'm right in saying that Bruce's points haul projected over a season would get us mid-table rather than in the play-offs, and I think the aim should be automatic promotion next year.

I wouldn't particularly want Ranieri, as I think after a series of managers who haven't put much emphasis on keeping the ball, going back to O'Neill this club has been set back somewhat and is now crying out for someone to teach it how to play football again.

That said I'd back Ranieri to do better than Bruce, he'd be a gamble but so would any manager, as would sticking with Bruce.

I don't think there's any chance of him being sacked now before next season, maybe other changes around the club might be made in an attempt to help him out.

[DelboyVilla]

Up until a few weeks ago I was in the keep Bruce camp but having watched the awful displays of late I am starting to have huge doubts as to whether this is just too big a job for SB?

I wonder if Ranieri would be interested as he seems adept at taking a side and getting the best out of what he has got?

Post in a nutshell:-

You have doubts - I think most of us do, do you follow that with, at this point in time changing the manager ?  - Your suggestion of Ranieri highlights the massive gamble of replacing Bruce now. Personally I think Ranieri would be a disastrous appointment, Id give Bruce a while longer. His points haul since taking over gets us play offs next season - throw in a decent keeper and who knows.
I think we have to wait for Bruce to fail - rather than making a preemptive strike now.

I still feel disapointed with Bruce I really thought he would acheive more with the players we have? At least the play offs or close but we are as far from the play offs as we are from relegation. It is quite staggering really!

Plus the January window was very exciting but seems to have caused us major issues and to enetr a slump? With a bunch of money spent with very little return as far as points go.

When you look at the team from yesterday other than 3 players it is a pre January side. We are still relying on Hutton, Bacuna and Grealish?

I would love to know why top Champoinship players have come into our club and flopped so regularly?

What is the problem at VP? We have changed owners, Directors, senior staff, players, coaching staff, nearly everything and we still seem cursed?

[smetro]

Up until a few weeks ago I was in the keep Bruce camp but having watched the awful displays of late I am starting to have huge doubts as to whether this is just too big a job for SB?

I wonder if Ranieri would be interested as he seems adept at taking a side and getting the best out of what he has got?

Post in a nutshell:-

You have doubts - I think most of us do, do you follow that with, at this point in time changing the manager ?  - Your suggestion of Ranieri highlights the massive gamble of replacing Bruce now. Personally I think Ranieri would be a disastrous appointment, Id give Bruce a while longer. His points haul since taking over gets us play offs next season - throw in a decent keeper and who knows.
I think we have to wait for Bruce to fail - rather than making a preemptive strike now.

I still feel disapointed with Bruce I really thought he would acheive more with the players we have? At least the play offs or close but we are as far from the play offs as we are from relegation. It is quite staggering really!

Plus the January window was very exciting but seems to have caused us major issues and to enetr a slump? With a bunch of money spent with very little return as far as points go.  

When you look at the team from yesterday other than 3 players it is a pre January side. We are still relying on Hutton, Bacuna and Grealish?

I would love to know why top Champoinship players have come into our club and flopped so regularly?

What is the problem at VP? We have changed owners, Directors, senior staff, players, coaching staff, nearly everything and we still seem cursed?

Agree - Bruce doesn't get a free ticket - I thought he would get us play offs.

I actually think a lot of it comes from keeper choice. Because Johnstone is so poor we have to limit the shots on goal - we do this by playing Jedinak as almost a 3rd centre back - which leaves us short of a body in midfield. Horrhaine hasn't shown at all - and Lansbury after a bright start seems to have faded.

I really think a better keeper would mean we don't have to sit so deep. But the noises coming out of VP are that we want Johnstone next season - which staggers me.

[deadbuzzardalive]

I don't think us sitting deep as anything to do with Johnstone, we were sitting deep under Bruce before Johnstone joined the club. It's down to the formation and players that Bruce selects, also not being very good at passing to eachother and having bad movement on and off the ball doesn't help either.

Actually surprised that Bruce doesn't set us up more as a counter attacking team, as with our players it's one system that just might suit us.

[Dazzle]

Up until a few weeks ago I was in the keep Bruce camp but having watched the awful displays of late I am starting to have huge doubts as to whether this is just too big a job for SB?

I wonder if Ranieri would be interested as he seems adept at taking a side and getting the best out of what he has got?

Post in a nutshell:-

You have doubts - I think most of us do, do you follow that with, at this point in time changing the manager ?  - Your suggestion of Ranieri highlights the massive gamble of replacing Bruce now. Personally I think Ranieri would be a disastrous appointment, Id give Bruce a while longer. His points haul since taking over gets us play offs next season - throw in a decent keeper and who knows.
I think we have to wait for Bruce to fail - rather than making a preemptive strike now.

The owner wouldn't admit it but I think the manager has already failed in not making the playoffs. With where we were going into January and the players purchased I think everyone was geared up for the playoffs, and we failed miserably. Losing games is one thing, but when performance points to nothing better then we should be concerned. And let's not beat about the bush here, the performances that we are seeing are horrible. Turgid. He's had 2/3 of the season and a bunch of new players in January and we've arguably gotten worse, both in results and displays. I don't see him being sacked until around Christmas, but it's something I can see happening now as I've been so disappointed with what's been served up.

[deadbuzzardalive]

After we beat Wigan on December 10th we were three points off the play-offs, we then went and signed pretty much the best midfielder in the division and one of the best strikers, along with other good players and now find ourselves 15 points off the play-offs, if that's not failing then I'm not sure what is.

[DelboyVilla]

After we beat Wigan on December 10th we were three points off the play-offs, we then went and signed pretty much the best midfielder in the division and one of the best strikers, along with other good players and now find ourselves 15 points off the play-offs, if that's not failing then I'm not sure what is.

I can't disagree with that and it is a travesty considering we out spent most of the Premier League and I cannot think of a decent performance we have put in under him? Personally I would get rid at the end of the season and try again!

[Trotters]

Calderwood started at the end of November (iirc). Make of that what you will.

[DelboyVilla]

Calderwood started at the end of November (iirc). Make of that what you will.

Well Bruce had hardly got them playing like Barca before that? As Houghton has Brighton playing a decent style of football I think Calderwood just does as the manager tells him?

[deadbuzzardalive]

I was reading the first few pages of the other Bruce thread, and was interested to see someone saying Pat Murphy had said that Bruce was Round's choice and Little and Wyness wanted to give the job to Clarke. which if true, surprises me as I thought it would be the other way around.

[smetro]

I was reading the first few pages of the other Bruce thread, and was interested to see someone saying Pat Murphy had said that Bruce was Round's choice and Little and Wyness wanted to give the job to Clarke. which if true, surprises me as I thought it would be the other way around.

Yes I heard the same - and thought the same as you.

I also heard that the absolute first choice was Sean Dyche - but after initial soundings he was deemed un gettable. Would be a serious contender next around IMO.

[deadbuzzardalive]

Doubt we'd get Dyche at the moment, and despite his recent relative success, I'd find that quite a boring appointment. I think one of the reasons that we keep failing despite trying new players and managers, is because a lot of the managers we've had are much of a muchness, it's not just the name that needs changing but the approach as well.

[smetro]

Doubt we'd get Dyche at the moment, and despite his recent relative success, I'd find that quite a boring appointment. I think one of the reasons that we keep failing despite trying new players and managers, is because a lot of the managers we've had are much of a muchness, it's not just the name that needs changing but the approach as well.

Well you could replace the people who choose the managers. But weve just done that. And in Wyness, Round, & little - you can't say they aren't football people.

I wouldn't agree the managers have been much of muchness, Houllier, Garde, Mcleish, RDM - all looked highly unlikley to succeed right from the start. Im am dismayed in Bruce so far - but I would give him a while longer

[DelboyVilla]

Doubt we'd get Dyche at the moment, and despite his recent relative success, I'd find that quite a boring appointment. I think one of the reasons that we keep failing despite trying new players and managers, is because a lot of the managers we've had are much of a muchness, it's not just the name that needs changing but the approach as well.

Well you could replace the people who choose the managers. But weve just done that. And in Wyness, Round, & little - you can't say they aren't football people.

I wouldn't agree the managers have been much of muchness, Houllier, Garde, Mcleish, RDM - all looked highly unlikley to succeed right from the start. Im am dismayed in Bruce so far  - but I would give him a while  longer

Yes his little while longer can be the last 2 games?

Dr Tony for all the statements spent money like he wanted to go straight back up and there is no reason other than poor performances that we are sat in mid table at the season end! The management and the players have let Dr Tony and the fans down big time!

I thought that Bruce was the right selection at the time but it seems I was wrong and I can't see what another wasted window will bring with Bruce in charge!

[deadbuzzardalive]

Something different is required.

[DelboyVilla]

Something different is required.

Yes but I am not sure what though!!! Certainly a new manager and coach! Whom though?????

[deadbuzzardalive]

Unfortunately there's no easy answer to that, we just have to hope that Round has done his research. I personally doubt that Bruce will be sacked any time soon, but wouldn't be surprised if Phelan is brought in, to help out.

If we lose the next two then maybe something might happen.

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