Re: The Summer Transfer Thread

[My Old Man]

Paul Lambert today:-


“The main thing is to get the staff together. Once we come back on Monday then things will start to roll.

“I don’t think anybody will go without me saying so. I think the lads are happy here and want to get going again.

“Things like that will happen soon.”



Seem's like he is covering his back?

Will he walk if they are sold without his say so?

[villabromsgrove]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

[cgale]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ? Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

[villabromsgrove]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ?  Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

I watched Okore play at right back against Chelsea in the CL, and he was outstanding. He also gets forward and overlaps as a wing back. A back four of Okore, Vlaar, Senderos and Baker would allow our midfield to attack with far more freedom. Gabby should be used as a left winger (he did it for the reserves regularly and crosses better with his left foot than his right Imo). Using Gabby wide would mean that Baker wouldn't have to get forward.

It won't happen because I don't think Lambert fancies Baker as a left back, and I expect Vlaar to be sold. That worries me as I think that Senderos would be risky without Vlaar alongside him.

[cgale]

that back 4 sounds interesting as an alternative to the back 5 Lambert has tended to use . And I agree about Gabby . But let's wait & see who if anybody get's sold/bought . I'm hoping Vlaar will be back & brings Blind with him

[My Old Man]

Why not put Heard at Right-back and try Lowton on the left? If we play Hutton, then even better,or can he play left?

[Green Villan]

Villabromsgrove that could be a master stroke putting Okore at RB (not exactly slow off the mark) as with sticking Clark at CDM we could put our resources into getting a player in a spot we need more, like LB etc.

[cgale]

Hmm. LB's we have 3 listed in the squad how many more do we need ? I think perhaps we need to think what we need &/or what type of player we need in that position . Or could it be that we need to look @ midfield & what players we have/need there especially as many of the problems start there

[My Old Man]

Hmm. LB's we have 3 listed in the squad how many more do we need ?  I think perhaps we need to think what we need &/or what type of player we need in that position . Or could it be that we need to look @ midfield & what players we have/need there especially as many of the problems start there

The problem is, the three of them are not very good.

However, i agree about point concerning priorities and Midfield is the major one for me.

[Green Villan]

Agreed cgale about the midfield too and My Old Man, midfield was a major problem in our run of bad results but it'd be nice to actually have a quality LB aswell as taking care of the mid'.

[DN1982]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ?  Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

I watched Okore play at right back against Chelsea in the CL, and he was outstanding. He also gets forward and overlaps as a wing back. A back four of Okore, Vlaar, Senderos and Baker would allow our midfield to attack with far more freedom. Gabby should be used as a left winger (he did it for the reserves regularly and crosses better with his left foot than his right Imo). Using Gabby wide would mean that Baker wouldn't have to get forward.

It won't happen because I don't think Lambert fancies Baker as a left back, and I expect Vlaar to be sold. That worries me as I think that Senderos would be risky without Vlaar alongside him.

Okore has always played CB as far as I'm aware and if it's the Chelsea game in the CL he was immense as a CB even though he played with a 2 on his back. baker is too slow and not agile enough to play LB these days but I agree he looked good there as a youngster. We need to play people in their strongest position and if they're not good enough replace them. Having Okore and. Vlaar together will help any FB so leave them there and hopefully Bennett and Lowton can step up both have shown there's a player in there but need to find PL consistency. I'd like an exp LB Pocognoli has been mentioned. I think Bacuna Hutton and Lowton can scrap it out the other side. With Luna probably going.

[DN1982]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ?  Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

I watched Okore play at right back against Chelsea in the CL, and he was outstanding. He also gets forward and overlaps as a wing back. A back four of Okore, Vlaar, Senderos and Baker would allow our midfield to attack with far more freedom. Gabby should be used as a left winger (he did it for the reserves regularly and crosses better with his left foot than his right Imo). Using Gabby wide would mean that Baker wouldn't have to get forward.

It won't happen because I don't think Lambert fancies Baker as a left back, and I expect Vlaar to be sold. That worries me as I think that Senderos would be risky without Vlaar alongside him.

Okore has always played CB as far as I'm aware and if it's the Chelsea game in the CL he was immense as a CB even though he played with a 2 on his back. baker is too slow and not agile enough to play LB these days but I agree he looked good there as a youngster. We need to play people in their strongest position and if they're not good enough replace them. Having Okore and. Vlaar together will help any FB so leave them there and hopefully Bennett and Lowton can step up both have shown there's a player in there but need to find PL consistency. I'd like an exp LB Pocognoli has been mentioned. I think Bacuna Hutton and Lowton can scrap it out the other side. With Luna probably going.

[villashrew]

End of conversation but what do I know? All we need is a CDM, he has already got Cole to play at home in the number 10 role (could be a masterstroke if he finds form), away he will stick with his counter attacking philosophy that yielded less points than a disastrous season at home. If we had half decent cover in front of the back four, two full backs who knew what they were doing then the centre halves pairing would not be under such constant pressure. But hey, it has been obvious to me for four years, before you ask yes I do have my coaching badges. I did them years ago in the Navy and this basic shit has been obvious for years! That is what pisses me off the most as it is basics that this idiot in charge of OUR team has not addressed for far too long.

[villashrew]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ?  Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

I watched Okore play at right back against Chelsea in the CL, and he was outstanding. He also gets forward and overlaps as a wing back. A back four of Okore, Vlaar, Senderos and Baker would allow our midfield to attack with far more freedom. Gabby should be used as a left winger (he did it for the reserves regularly and crosses better with his left foot than his right Imo). Using Gabby wide would mean that Baker wouldn't have to get forward.

It won't happen because I don't think Lambert fancies Baker as a left back, and I expect Vlaar to be sold. That worries me as I think that Senderos would be risky without Vlaar alongside him.

Let me get this right. Are you once again Cgale defending Lambert for his "lack of alternatives" for lack of tactical awareness and team selection? Are you genuinely a Villa fan? Do you actually watch us play? How the fuck can you still defend this regime so profusely? Some of the team selections and tactical formations following a good performance were absolutely diabolical! He would bench a man of the match performer and start with someone who would score no more than a 4! Logic does not enter Lamberts thinking (IMO) otherwise he would be safely locked up in a straight jacket after all the fuck ups he made the last two years.

[Trotters]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; there is no other club that would tolerate his seemingly endless setting of new and unwanted records. It's hard to imagine quite what he'd have to do to get fired. I don't even believe relegation would move him. Randy has a strong record of hiring people who turn out to be wrong but he faithfully sticks by them no matter what.

And I'm sure if the events/results/failures of the last two years at Villa had befallen Blues/Stripeys/Dogs, then Cgale would be laughing his bollocks off.

Cgale puts forward a (seemingly) good argument if it's limited to a very narrow criteria. But looking at Villa at a more wholistic level reveals the true nature of a failings. You only have to look at the money that has been pumped into the club to see how bad we have been managed - from top to bottom. For the kind of money spent, we SHOULD be top 4. No question. Top 6 would be barely acceptable. Top half only should have been considered a failure. To be relegation fodder with no future is....well, it's just fucked on a grand scale!

[Guest]

My mood going into the new season is low - i find it hard to believe lambert is still in a job and although I welcome the addition of Keane I think it could be a dreadful season looking at our first 10 fixtures

[cgale]

I watched Nathan Baker play regularly at left back for the reserves when he was eighteen …. he was superb (crashing slide tackles and he didn't take prisoners). He also played left back for England U20's. However the 2014 version of NB is massive in comparison with the tall rangy figure that he was as an eighteen year old, and as a result is not quite as mobile. Lowry was the power house, Clarke was the 19 year old Captain and organiser and they were very effective.

I know tactics change and attacking wing backs are flavour of the month, but I got fed up of watching other teams targeting our left hand channel last season. We made it so easy for them to score.

It's time for a tight old fashioned defence to stop us leaking easy goals.

Understand what your saying but is that the solution ?  Or could it be that we need changes else where in the team , as it seemed to me that the defence were getting the blame for what happened elsewhere in the team . Last season it seemed that Lambert was being forced to make compramises in tactics & team selection to cover for lack of alternative s in the squad . But that's not saying the defence were not guilty of some blunders but rather that last ditch defending tends to lead to more being made .

I watched Okore play at right back against Chelsea in the CL, and he was outstanding. He also gets forward and overlaps as a wing back. A back four of Okore, Vlaar, Senderos and Baker would allow our midfield to attack with far more freedom. Gabby should be used as a left winger (he did it for the reserves regularly and crosses better with his left foot than his right Imo). Using Gabby wide would mean that Baker wouldn't have to get forward.

It won't happen because I don't think Lambert fancies Baker as a left back, and I expect Vlaar to be sold. That worries me as I think that Senderos would be risky without Vlaar alongside him.

Let me get this right. Are you once again Cgale defending Lambert for his "lack of alternatives" for lack of tactical awareness and team selection? Are you genuinely a Villa fan? Do you actually watch us play? How the fuck can you still defend this regime so profusely? Some of the team selections and tactical formations following a good performance were absolutely diabolical! He would bench a man of the match performer and start with someone who would score no more than a 4! Logic does not enter Lamberts thinking (IMO) otherwise he would be safely locked up in a straight jacket after all the fuck ups he made the last two years.

So let's get this right your saying that having done some coaching badges, some time in the dim & distant past, that soime how qualifies you to make a Psychiatric assessment on Villa's manager . Well that just about quantifies, just how ridiculous your remarks are !
As for watching Villa, bar a couple of cup matches I watched all of Villas matches last season And rather than judge the team on what I thought was the one that should be fielded, I considered ALL of the facts , including which players were fit , which players needed match time AND how  by giving players match time they might be capable of giving better tactical options in future matches . Footie in the Prem is a squad game, not as it is in lesser leagues a starting 11 + others, even if using those tactics  we had several 6th place finishes under MON, but NO trophies & were not going anywhere !
But just make things very clear  some of last seasons performances were not good enough BUT for a team to perform like a well oiled machine it has to have all it's parts in good working order & if a machine has a bodged repair with incorrect parts it will not work very well . And the same goes for a team . It's easy to say well there should be the correct type of player available to play in any given position , it's easy to say that if a player is sat on the bench when fans want him playing that the manager is wrong even though the fans are not aware that the player is not fully fit . But it was those sort of tactics that lead Villa not to win any significant trophies under MON . And there was one other problem that some fail to realise & that is that  a manager like the captain of a ship relys on a good chain of comand  . And if that chain of commend is broken or the man @ the top recieves duff info things do go wrong . Lambert did not lose the dressing room but his underlings did & kept it from him, which was why some of the problems happened !
It's no good muttering it should not have happened . But it did & steps have been taken to sort things but with the club up for sale & limited funds to improve the team all we can do is get behind the team & hope that with a good preseason we can have a better run of performances in the coming season

[villabromsgrove]

Since Randy took over AVFC we have had an average net spend of less than 15 million per season on new players (probably as low as 12 million depending on undisclosed fees). Take a step back and look at what other clubs believe it's necessary to spend, and it becomes obvious that we deserve to be at the lower end of the Premier League.

If we take in to account the huge amount of wasted money due to financial incompetence and inexperience, the value that Randy has "added" to Villa becomes a negative figure.

I've become frustrated with Lambert's tactics, leadership and man management, also with the fact that he seemed not to know what was really happening with his support staff …. but the fact remains that PL has had a rough deal at the hands of the apparently nice Mr Lerner, who has shafted Paul Lambert with his suicidally tight financial remit.

Until we have a new owner we won't know whether Villa will be able to financially compete for the acquisition of quality players. The one thing we do know is that unless adequate funding is made available soon, we are going to have to "go again" with a bottom six squad and pray that the "Roy Keane" effect will help to get more out of the players already here.

[Guest]

Why not put Heard at Right-back and try Lowton on the left?  If we play Hutton, then even better,or can he play left?

I'd go with Hutton at right back if he's part of the squad .
Left back we need a new signing in my view - Bennett, luna, baker all ok as cover at best.

[cgale]

Since Randy took over AVFC we have had an average net spend of less than 15 million per season on new players (probably as low as 12 million depending on undisclosed fees). Take a step back and look at what other clubs believe it's necessary to spend, and it becomes obvious that we deserve to be at the lower end of the Premier League.

If we take in to account the huge amount of wasted money due to financial incompetence and inexperience, the value that Randy has "added" to Villa becomes a negative figure.

I've become frustrated with Lambert's tactics, leadership and man management, also with the fact that he seemed not to know what was really happening with his support staff …. but the fact remains that PL has had a rough deal at the hands of the apparently nice Mr Lerner, who has shafted Paul Lambert with his suicidally tight financial remit.

Until we have a new owner we won't know whether Villa will be able to financially compete for the acquisition of quality players. The one thing we do know is that unless adequate funding is made available soon, we are going to have to "go again" with a bottom six squad and pray that the "Roy Keane" effect will help to get more out of the players already here.

Ah yes "Net spend" thjat magical term that get's curned out every time some one wants to slate the club for it spending on players , despite the FACT that in Lerners early years Villa were 2nd only to ManC in their spending on players . Other than sounding good when having a rant it means bugger all , when one considers that Lerner & the fans had little value for the money spent . But it sounds good to say that players sold might have brought success if more had been spent , but equally it MIGHT have only bancrupted the club ! Bad management ? It's easy to make that judgement AFTER an event but how many were happy @ the thought of Villa becoming a successfull club . It's easy to say I didn't want X,Y or Z running the club/team but unforteanately that is the way of the World . The truth is that Lerner has spent a lot of his own money trying to improve the club . It's easy to say he got the club on the cheap , or that the new training facilities were planned before he came but it was his money that paid for them .
As for having adequate funds to ensure that Villa can compete in the coming season , who has said Villa will not other than a few rumour mongers & the press who feed on those rumour to sell their papers ? After all how often since Lerner took over has the transfer pot matched the rumours ?

[Morpheus]

Cgale you remind me so much of one or two posters on other sites I have been on who no matter what the circumstance or indeed statistics post based on nothing more than unsubstantiated PR for the club which I've previously termed 'blind faith.'

That's not to say that I don't agree with some of what you say concerning Lerner's initial investment which was substantial but I think what people are complaining about is this.

Under Lambert we've seen the type of stats that no manager would want on their CV such as worst ever start to a Premiership season. Worst goals conceded in over 20 years. Worst defeat in the history of the club. 2nd lowest points total in Premiership history. Lost over two legs to Bradford and over three games conceded 15 goals while scoring none. You could also add the home record and parity in points with one of the worst managers this club has ever had.

Lambert's policy of buying youth and inexperience to replace Premiership experience was always doomed to failure so much so that when he finally realised this, there was only so much left in the transfer kitty to bring in the likes of Grant Holt when we had already farmed Bent out on loan for being too static and not fitting the Lambert system.

Then of course we had the debacle at LB where after buying two LBs Lambert then decided to bring Bertrand in on loan after deciding that his purchases in that position weren't good enough. Lambert also purchased Kozak when that money should have been spent elsewhere particularly in midfield.

The purchase of Bowery was also very strange since we already had The Fonz who was certainly no worse than Bowery and ultimately that and the above should be pigeon holed into poor allocation of limited funding!

Lambert did however bring back Guzan and the purchase of Benteke and Vlaar can be described as his only successes to date within our club.

However Lambert's tenure to date with us taking everything into consideration has been an unmitigated disaster with the recent signings of Joe Cole and Senderos sending out a message to us all that it won't get better any time soon.

Concerning Lerner he has cut investment to that of a mid table Championship team or worse when we needed that investment the most and you only have to read the opinion of the Browns supporters to see how they felt about their previous owner.

Lerner has made some dreadful managerial appointments for our club and while they may have been well intentioned appointments they were nevertheless disastrous for our club. It was his responsibility for those appointments and his responsibility for how the club has been run practically into the ground that even with the increase investment from Sky we are now reliant on loanees and freebies to build our squad for the new season.

Do you think then that considering the above stats that the the plight of our club at the moment can be explained away by just being victims of circumstance or is it simply that by our chairman's choice of manager and the mis-allocation of funding, the chairman should take total responsibility for the mess our great club finds itself in?

Really it's no surprise to me that for some time now Lerner hasn't wanted to be at Villa Park because no-one likes to stare their own failure in the face.

[Guest]

A good post morph - lambert and lerner are equally culpable for me and the sooner both are gone the better .

I can not imagine lambert would survive under any other chairman in the league - his management of the club has been shocking.

[villashrew]

Great post Morpheus, Cgale may take his blinkers off long enough to read that eloquent, reasoned and factual post of the current plight we are in. How he could possibly argue with any of what you have written would just prove that he is on the club's PR payroll (god knows why they would employ him though as his grammar and spelling are atrocious!   )

Lambert would not have survived with his record over the past two seasons under any other owner. Lerner must take blame also for the restraints he has placed over Lambert which as a combination nearly cost us our Premier league status yet again.

Personally like Eastie, I think the sooner they are both gone the better for the club we love.

[cgale]

Cgale you remind me so much of one or two posters on other sites I have been on who no matter what the circumstance or indeed statistics post based on nothing more than unsubstantiated PR for the club which I've previously termed 'blind faith.'

That's not to say that I don't agree with some of what you say concerning Lerner's initial investment which was substantial but I think what people are complaining about is this.

Under Lambert we've seen the type of stats that no manager would want on their CV such as worst ever start to a Premiership season. Worst goals conceded in over 20 years. Worst defeat in the history of the club. 2nd lowest points total in Premiership history. Lost over two legs to Bradford and over three games conceded 15 goals while scoring none. You could also add the home record and parity in points with one of the worst managers this club has ever had.

Lambert's policy of buying youth and inexperience to replace Premiership experience was always doomed to failure so much so that when he finally realised this, there was only so much left in the transfer kitty to bring in the likes of Grant Holt when we had already farmed Bent out on loan for being too static and not fitting the Lambert system.

Then of course we had the debacle at LB where after buying two LBs Lambert then decided to bring Bertrand in on loan after deciding that his purchases in that position weren't good enough. Lambert also purchased Kozak when that money should have been spent elsewhere particularly in midfield.

The purchase of Bowery was also very strange since we already had The Fonz who was certainly no worse than Bowery and ultimately that and the above should be pigeon holed into poor allocation of limited funding!

Lambert did however bring back Guzan and the purchase of Benteke and Vlaar can be described as his only successes to date within our club.

However Lambert's tenure to date with us taking everything into consideration has been an unmitigated disaster with the recent signings of Joe Cole and Senderos sending out a message to us all that it won't get better any time soon.

Concerning Lerner he has cut investment to that of a mid table Championship team or worse when we needed that investment the most and you only have to read the opinion of the Browns supporters to see how they felt about their previous owner.

Lerner has made some dreadful managerial appointments for our club and while they may have been well intentioned appointments they were nevertheless disastrous for our club. It was his responsibility for those appointments and his responsibility for how the club has been run practically into the ground that even with the increase investment from Sky we are now reliant on loanees and freebies to build our squad for the new season.

Do you think then that considering the above stats that the the plight of our club at the moment can be explained away by just being victims of circumstance or is it simply that by our chairman's choice of manager and the mis-allocation of funding, the chairman should take total responsibility for the mess our great club finds itself in?

Really it's no surprise to me that for some time now Lerner hasn't wanted to be at Villa Park because no-one likes to stare their own failure in the face.

Stats tell what ever story the their compiler is asked to show with them . As for the reliance on youth well history says otherwise @ post Munich ManU & more recently in Germany @ both National & Club level so saying it was doomed to failure before it was tried is wrong . As for Lerner well circumstances have changed & his life away from Villa is US based so of course he spends most of his time away from the club . But why is it so important that he does attend matches when many other Overseas owners don't ?
As for the players, who actually bought them Lambert or as I heard it Faulkner ?

But perhaps somebody can explain what protesting does apart from make the club less attractive to a big money buyer , or to players

[My Old Man]

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