January '17 Transfer Window

blimey Wendy have you swallowed a dictionary ?

AstonThriller wrote:

Joppe84 wrote:Digging a hole when you are comparing a midtable championship players to Barcelona, arguably one the best midfields to be assembled, in a different League with an utterly different style of play. Right on. Utter drivel.

Surprise surprise AGAIN you've missed the point!!.

We were talking about THE SIZE of midfielders!!..it was nothing to do with the ABILITY of the midfielder. So please fathom that if you wish to continue this debate as you're simply making no sense whatsoever.

really hope we don't sign messi, too small

a good "big un" usually gets a chance before a good "little un" that's just the nature of the game, we do need better quality than Deadwood & Gardner though

"Deadwood and Gardner" lol - sounds like the worst cop show on tv - probably go out on BBC1 at 8pm on a Sunday. Nostalgia porn with our bumbling duo solving allotment based crimes - Mrs Twee-Smythe murdered with the secateurs in the potting shed in a pre-war yawn-fest.

We should probably make an own thread for the midfield discussion, but whatever. Am I the only one thinking we should bring Veretout back? Ease him in against easier opposition, in a club with better vibe (if that's the right word for it) and a squad with confidence?

I know he probably isn't as fit as Bruce would like, but he is quite similar to Huddlestone I think. It's just absurd to have a player that's played actively for France U18, U19, U20 and U21 only for us not to utilize him in the championship. Especially when the options are as shit as Gardner and Westwood. If the experiment fails it fails, but at least we've tried.

Joppe84 wrote:We should probably make an own thread for the midfield discussion, but whatever. Am I the only one thinking we should bring Veretout back? Ease him in against easier opposition, in a club with better vibe (if that's the right word for it) and a squad with confidence?

I know he probably isn't as fit as Bruce would like, but he is quite similar to Huddlestone I think. It's just absurd to have a player that's played actively for France U18, U19, U20 and U21 only for us not to utilize him in the championship. Especially when the options are as shit as Gardner and Westwood. If the experiment fails it fails, but at least we've tried.

Definitely should be considered, Gil too (unless something has changed that I've missed).

I'd have Vertout, Gil and Sanchez back over Westwood and Gardner...

Wriggle wrote:I'd have Vertout, Gil and Sanchez back over Westwood and Gardner...

With the shitty owner and multiple shitty managers they played under last year I think the only way we would get any of these back to Brum would be to send out a snatch squad to kidnap them at gun point? Even with all the changes for the good so far this season I think Veretout is still in counseling over last year?

I would rather see us going for some decent established midfielders like Lansbury, Cattermole, Mikel (LOL), Stephens, etc the list is endless in reality because to replace Westwood all we need is a player that has a backbone and to replace Gardner all we need is a player whose brain and feet are connected?

And yes we have way too many strikers in a system where we need 1 most of the time and 2 sometimes. Let's get rid of some? If Gestede is wanted by the Boggies let them have him, if Ayew and McCormack need to move on then let them go. Kodjia, gabby and RHM is a decent bunch of strikers and maybe add Rhodes on loan. That would leave money for a left winger 2 CM a keeper and utility defender? Job Done?

Keeper
Right-back
Centre-back
Central midfielder
Attacking midfielder
Winger

Would be at the top of my list come January. Might be asking a lot to get six but for me this is what is needed if we really want to dominate the play-offs if/when we get there.

I also think Bruce has to make some big decisions on Gestede, Mccormack, Ayew, Westwood, Richards and Bacuna. Some of these have got to go in the next window imo. Ayew for me has so much talent but the fact is he's only scored two league goals this season...simply not good enough. Mccormack doesn't appear to fit our system either and the rest just aren't up to it. It's time to be ruthless now.

Even the defence of Baker/Chester simply doesn't keep enough clean sheets. So why not bring in a decent centre-half to put pressure on them and push Elphick further down the pecking order?

CM and RB for me. Ideally a Premier League quality CM on loan as well.

Keeper
Centre-half
Central midfielder

are essentials to me.

We have enough attackers, perhaps prune one or two (i.e. sulky Ayew, Gestede/McCormack who just don't fit any system we play)?

Joppe84 wrote:CM and RB for me. Ideally a Premier League quality CM on loan as well.

Lately I've been researching the boy Loftus-Cheek at Chelsea. He's not getting a sniff down there at all and I'd be surprised if Bruce doesn't look at him because I think his energy and ability to both defend and attack would be brilliant alongside Jedi. Also I'd have thought Chelsea would love to see the lad get some games here and develop more.

The story concerning the Man U keeper keeps raising it's head doesn't it. That might be of interest.
No doubt in my mind we are far enough away from what we need that I can't argue with a single one of the positions listed in ATs post above.
Ayew should go in Jan without a doubt because he still carries a 15/16 season attitude and it shows.

We still clearly lack balance in the squad. This will be improve a lot of we get in a RB and a central midfielder with sufficient quality.

I agree with Ayew though. I've had a lot of patience for him, but time to cut our losses.

Regarding a CB and GK I just don't see the need. In fact I think it will be bad for the dressingroom if we can't allow players to have rough a mistake now and then. Chester and Baker have been rock solid and it's not likely we will find better championship backup than Elphick. Gollini deserves his spot as well. He's been good when Baker has been in the side. He has the odd clanger, but young keepers do. Will get much better with time.

We've only got three centre-backs so we need one anyway. So why not get one that can realistically challenge Baker and Chester? the fact is they've only kept one clean sheet in the seven games they played together so it's not like they are an incredible partnership.

Steer is also injured and Bruce has confirmed we're getting a new keeper so that's gonna happen whether we like it or not. The better the players we have the better our chances...talking about "dressing rooms" is merely speculation at the end of the day.

A lot might depend on how we do in the December games. It's a tough run of fixtures and if we do badly, even the play-offs may well be out of reach, by the time January arrives, which may well affect the club's buying strategy.

But if we can do well this month and looking at the (on paper) more favorable fixtures of next month, then I still believe that aided by some team strengthening, we can still make a challenge for automatic promotion, as improbably as it may seem at the moment.

deadbuzzardalive wrote:A lot might depend on how we do in the December games. It's a tough run of fixtures and if we do badly, even the play-offs may well be out of reach, by the time January arrives, which may well affect the club's buying strategy.

But if we can do well this month and looking at the (on paper) more favorable fixtures of next month, then I still believe that aided by some team strengthening, we can still make a challenge for automatic promotion, as improbably as it may seem at the moment.

If we win our next two home games against Wigan and Burton, and manage to somehow win one of the away games at Norwich or QPR then we should be in good shape when we face Leeds at home.

DelboyVilla wrote:

Wriggle wrote:Kodjia, gabby and RHM is a decent bunch of strikers 

Really? Kodjia sure but Gabby still has more cards than goals and hasn't shown me he's at his best at all. Audrey Hepburn-Murphy hasn't scored a senior goal.

I'd be ok with Gestede and Ayew going with a striker and a proper winger coming in.

I absolutely loathe the fact that people think football is best developed by throwing money at it. It just isn't. Until we start building a squad like a proper club does, I don't think we will win anything. Even this mickey mouse league.

Can't believe how plastic this club has become. But I guess this is what happens when the FA shits on academys by letting CL clubs poach what they want prior to a pro contract.

Meh I'm off to bed.

Branislav Ivanovic as a stop-gap until we can properly assess what we need in Summer????

Joppe84 wrote:I absolutely loathe the fact that people think football is best developed by throwing money at it. It just isn't. Until we start building a squad like a proper club does, I don't think we will win anything. Even this mickey mouse league.

Can't believe how plastic this club has become. But I guess this is what happens when the FA shits on academys by letting CL clubs poach what they want prior to a pro contract.

Meh I'm off to bed.

Not so sure it's that Joppe , it's more about needing a quick fix means you have to - if you are lucky enough - to buy your way out of trouble. For a club of our size and history I've often been disappointed at the academy and we have to look at Aston Villa first before blaming anyone else. I'd love a slow burn approach but fact is the money dries up if you aren't in the Premier. I loath the money driven aspect as much as the next man, but it's kind of where we are in the modern game. I'd be happy to spend our way back to the prem then develop the youth set up once we've consolidated ourselves once more as a top club.
I don't think that makes me a plastic - more a sad realist!

De Kuip wrote:
Not so sure it's that Joppe ,  it's more about needing a quick fix means you have to - if you are lucky enough - to buy your way out of trouble.  For a club of our size and history I've often been disappointed at the academy and we have to look at Aston Villa first before blaming anyone else. I'd love a slow burn approach but fact is the money dries up if you aren't in the Premier.  I loath the money driven aspect as much as the next man, but it's kind of where we are in the modern game. I'd be happy to spend our way back to the prem then develop the youth set up once we've consolidated ourselves once more as a top club.
I don't think that makes me a plastic - more a sad realist!

Exactly. If you have a financial advantage over most, if not all the teams in this division then why not use it? We've been left to play catch-up as it is, getting to January and throwing our weight around is the only thing that is gonna separate us from the other pretenders imo. Because in reality Derby, Sheff Wed, Leeds, Brighton, Reading, Huddersfield etc aren't gonna be able to spend 15/20m in the window but we potentially could. And in the end that is what could be a massive difference between us and those sides going up this season.

De Kuip wrote:

Joppe84 wrote:I absolutely loathe the fact that people think football is best developed by throwing money at it. It just isn't. Until we start building a squad like a proper club does, I don't think we will win anything. Even this mickey mouse league.

Can't believe how plastic this club has become. But I guess this is what happens when the FA shits on academys by letting CL clubs poach what they want prior to a pro contract.

Meh I'm off to bed.

Not so sure it's that Joppe , it's more about needing a quick fix means you have to - if you are lucky enough - to buy your way out of trouble. For a club of our size and history I've often been disappointed at the academy and we have to look at Aston Villa first before blaming anyone else. I'd love a slow burn approach but fact is the money dries up if you aren't in the Premier. I loath the money driven aspect as much as the next man, but it's kind of where we are in the modern game. I'd be happy to spend our way back to the prem then develop the youth set up once we've consolidated ourselves once more as a top club.
I don't think that makes me a plastic - more a sad realist!

100% disagree. Both West Ham and Southampton and to some extent Leeds have been where we are and did way better with way less.

Well in 2006/7 Saints were in trouble after spending a record £6m in transfer fees. They then proceeded to sell Kenwyne Jones and Gareth Bale to prevent going into administration. They continued to try and buy their way out of trouble, but to no avail and the parent company went into administration. They then got relegated to League 1 after 3 seasons in the championship, and because they were already relegated, they got deducted 10 points for going into administration. Once the Matt le Tissier bailout had happened, and Liebher took over, did they build from within, or buy? Guess what, they bought - Rickie Lambert. They stayed in League 1 for two seasons before getting promotion to the Championship, finishing runners up and returning to the Prem the season after.
So did saints buy their way out of trouble when they could? You betcha. They always had a good youth system, but they bought at every opportunity. Do I want to emulate them - no thanks - 4 seasons in the Championship and two in League 1 - of course they had time to build momentum - 6 years of it.
Leeds isn't worth responding to - the basket case of basket cases, brought on by profligate spending that made the US short-selling sub prime market of pre 2008 look positively frugal.
West ham - found guilty for fiddling the books over the Tevez & Mascherano signings - got fined a mill, but controversially didn't get deducted any points, which had they, would have meant relegation. Like Southampton, have a good academy tradition, but still spend spend spend when they can. Again, another financial struggle with Icelandic owners meant that the shirt sponsorts - SBOBET - stumped up cash so they could buy striker Allesandro Diamanti (seeing a theme yet?). I would also argue that they didn't need to build too much as they went down with a decent team in 2011. In the Championship they had players like Rob Green/Carlton Cole (scored 14 goals that season)/James Tompkins/Kevin Nolan/Mark Noble/Vaz Te and John Carew.
This is their net spending since they went back up into the Prem.:
2012/13 - £18.25M
2013/14 - £25.00M
2014/15 - 25.75M
2015/16 - £28.70M
2016/17 (summer only) - £27.60M

I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above - personally I think you literally couldn't have picked 3 worse examples to prove your point - I'm off to lie down, my head hurts - I'm leaving this stuff to AstonThriller in future  

Great thread.

We definitely need a new CB. Elphick is shit even as a back up and Baker - although he's been much tougher this season - is part-made from glass so he's going to have time on the bench during a season. As such, you need a defender that can give you a chance of keeping a clean sheet and Elphick just ain't it.

Our immense strike force is a mess; largely because they're not being fed from midfield. Having the likes of Kodjia, Ayew, Gabby and McCormack in from of you should be a midfielders dream yet Gardner rarely seems to thread a ball through, Westwood has zero assists which is unfatomable and any ball Jedi sends through seems to be more random than skill.

A decent RB is another must-have. Hutton should be shitting all over this league but he's not partly because when he does venture forward, there's very little creative midfield support for him so he just lobs it into....er....well, he lobs it anywhere.

And like Elphick, he's got a fuck-up in him so keeping a clean sheet is more by luck than talent.

I'm ok with Gollini in goal. Yes he should have come for that ball a fraction earlier than he did and with a lot more intent, but I'm sure he'll learn from that. He certainly seems like a lad that can be taught.

But the midfield has to be rebuilt. Gardner has had enough of a run now to show that he has something and, one half decent game aside, has offered nothing. If I was his agent, I'd argue that it's his midfield partners that are the issue but (a) he shouldn't NEED another two midfielders along side him and (b) Jedinak is a decent midfield enforcer so it's up to Gardner to drive the team. He doesn't do it. He's a total passenger. Get rid asap.

Westwood tries and he had a decent game against Leeds but he's one league above where he should be. Again, a player that has a fuck up in him that's not countered by his thread going forward. He seems really gun-shy when it comes to tackling and won't ever take a player on.

When you have a side with Jedinak (who's passing is awful), Westwood, Hutton and Elphick who will all drop at least one bollock in a game, then keeping clean sheets is exceedingly hard.

Now, speaking of giving the ball away reminds me of André Green who, in his time on the pitch, didn't give it away at all (from memory). That was one thing that stood out for me when I saw him. The lad would drive forward and find himself in trouble but still wouldn't give the ball up. So why has he not been given a run? Same as Lyden....seemed a very determined player who had clearly been taught that the football is precious so keep it as long as you can.

I can't believe he's worse than Westwood. Or Hutton. So WTF is going on there?