Re: Promotion discussion thread

[De Kuip]

For me, and I'm starting to bore myself now, but if we don't at least give O'Hare or the Russian a chance, how can we say we're down to bare bones (which is what Bruce is saying)?
I know that they are all high stakes games now but if we don't try we'll never know.
I really believe that if the two above mentioned aren't  given a chance this season we might as well get rid of the U23s cos I simply cannot see the point of them.
If O'Hare isn't ready now he never will be cos he's starting to run games regularly and surely is deserving of a chance. When I don't even see these lads involved in the matchday squad I just am left scratching my head.

But why would we do that? In our last season in the PL when it was very very clear we were going down we just got to see the same old crap from the same old players. Were the academy players being protected because they were so young (load of bollocks, there was no expectation on them at all), were we afraid it would just showcase our best talent for other clubs to buy or was the intention to give the money-paying fans a two-fingered salute every match? Same shit, proven to not work and be completely uninspiring while waiting to see which PL club they'd be at next (with a small number of exceptions like Amavi). Onomah doesn't care and despite four goals just isn't interested in playing on left wing or wherever: unless he wants to play and is put in his natural position he shouldn't be anywhere near Bodymoor Heath let alone a starting or subs place. Look at Thor and Hutton, even Snodgrass and Tuanzebe. They're players who I want to see do well because they seem to care, even if the last two are on loan. Look at Terry pulling Ndoye off Jedi at the end of the Blues match. O'Hare is not only looking bloody good but he's Villa. Add that to piles of experience playing with the likes of Davis and Audrey, why isn't he even on the subs bench? Isn't PL promotion more important than promotion to the top level of academy football?

Totally agree and look, I'm not saying our lads are the equivalent of Spurs starlets, but how the he'll would we know if they don't get a crack at first team football?
When you think that Danny Rose/Harry Kane/Kyle Walker-Peters and Harry Winks are all in Spurs first team, all from their academy, then if they can be risked in Prem games (yeah I know they all had one or more loan spells first, just like Onomah now with us), why not our lads in the championship?
Anyway I'm going to leave off commenting on this subject cos it boils my piss

[FoxyAV]

For me, and I'm starting to bore myself now, but if we don't at least give O'Hare or the Russian a chance, how can we say we're down to bare bones (which is what Bruce is saying)?
I know that they are all high stakes games now but if we don't try we'll never know.
I really believe that if the two above mentioned aren't  given a chance this season we might as well get rid of the U23s cos I simply cannot see the point of them.
If O'Hare isn't ready now he never will be cos he's starting to run games regularly and surely is deserving of a chance. When I don't even see these lads involved in the matchday squad I just am left scratching my head.

But why would we do that? In our last season in the PL when it was very very clear we were going down we just got to see the same old crap from the same old players. Were the academy players being protected because they were so young (load of bollocks, there was no expectation on them at all), were we afraid it would just showcase our best talent for other clubs to buy or was the intention to give the money-paying fans a two-fingered salute every match? Same shit, proven to not work and be completely uninspiring while waiting to see which PL club they'd be at next (with a small number of exceptions like Amavi). Onomah doesn't care and despite four goals just isn't interested in playing on left wing or wherever: unless he wants to play and is put in his natural position he shouldn't be anywhere near Bodymoor Heath let alone a starting or subs place. Look at Thor and Hutton, even Snodgrass and Tuanzebe. They're players who I want to see do well because they seem to care, even if the last two are on loan. Look at Terry pulling Ndoye off Jedi at the end of the Blues match. O'Hare is not only looking bloody good but he's Villa. Add that to piles of experience playing with the likes of Davis and Audrey, why isn't he even on the subs bench? Isn't PL promotion more important than promotion to the top level of academy football?

Totally agree and look, I'm not saying our lads are the equivalent of Spurs starlets, but how the he'll would we know if they don't get a crack at first team football?
When you think that Danny Rose/Harry Kane/Kyle Walker-Peters and Harry Winks are all in Spurs first team, all from their academy, then if they can be risked in Prem games (yeah I know they all had one or more loan spells first, just like Onomah now with us), why not our lads in the championship?
Anyway I'm going to leave off commenting on this subject cos it boils my piss

I occasionally look on newsnow and last week there was a great story from a Newcastle site saying our £4.5million number 10 Jack Grealish would be a great addition to their team and a statement of intent for whichever owner they'd have in the summer. Imagine that, one of our players going for such a huge fee to the mighty Newcastle! I'm kidding, Grealish is ours, he's staying, he's going to help us get promoted and he's at very minimum as good as any PL loan player currently floating round the Championship. It took Sherwood to bring him through though, Lambert just wasn't interested. Bruce doesn't appear interested in taking the academy seriously, even when we've run out of people who can play that position (see Green on left wing then Grealish then Adomah and now anyone but an academy player). In fact last season I seem to recall we even had Kodjia and Ayew on the left wing before Green was even considered.

I don't see why O'Hare for us is any different to Onomah for Spurs, other than Onomah has piles of England and Spurs academy experience. So what? Why does that make him more suitable to play disinterestedly and ineffectively out of position than O'Hare who desperately wants to play for his club in his correct position where it's already proven he's bloody effective.

I'm as infuriated by this as you. It's odd though, I'd have thought Joppe would have an opinion on O'Hare not playing but I've not heard a single word from him on the subject

[deadbuzzardalive]

If you take away the first three games of the season, we're actually second in the league, four points ahead of Cardiff, and only five points behind Wolves. Now of course we can't erase those first three games, but it does show that for most of the season we've been the second best team in the division, and if we can keep that form up we should still have a good chance.

Form guide for the last thirty games.

[achilles]

The one major asset players from the U23's bring to the party is enthusiasm, just like Davis did when he was first introduced he was a revelation, although his form has dipped now, probably because he is thinking too much about what he has to do rather than just playing his natural game.

I too sound like a broken record concerning O'Hare and he might not be the next Grealish or whatever but he does without question deserve an opportunity of at least a couple of games of more than the ten minutes sub role. If he doesn't get the opportunity now while we are in the championship he will definitely get no chance IF we get promoted.
To some extent this applies to all the U23 squad. Who is the left winger playing in the U23, why isn't he considered or at least on the bench?

At the beginning of the season it was categorically stated that we would be using our youth setup much more in the coming campaign, this has not happened and should be questioned as to why it has not happened. Otherwise as mentioned above what is the point of the U23's, we might as well scrap them!

However much it might pain us, Bruce is not about to change and will continue to play established players out of their natural positions so creating an imbalance within the team. Our hope at the moment is just to try and stay in touch until we get our better players back and hope we go on another winning streak (lots of hope in that sentence), oh and forget the playing football bit!

[achilles]

If you take away the first three games of the season, we're actually second in the league, four points ahead of Cardiff, and only five points behind Wolves. Now of course we can't erase those first three games, but it does show that for most of the season we've been the second best team in the division, and if we can keep that form up we should still have a good chance.

Form guide for the last thirty games.

That is a very interesting table, if you put the last 6 games in we are 4th behind Fulham, Cardiff and Millwall, so it isn't all doom and gloom yet but we mustn't let it get worse and perhaps more pertinent we have to overtake Cardiff in the form table.

[achilles]

A weekly update:

Wolves

QPR at home...............W2 - 1
Preston away...............D1 - 1
Norwich at home..........D2 - 2
Fulham away
Reading at home


Derby

Norwich at home........D1 - 1
Wednesday away........L2 - 0
Leeds at home...........D2 - 2
Reading away
Fulham at home


Villa

Birmingham at home......W2 - 0
Fulham away................ L2 - 0
Preston at home.............D1 - 1
Wednesday away
QPR at home


Cardiff

Millwall away...........D1 - 1
Bolton at home........W2 - 0
Boro at home...........W1 - 0
Ipswich away...........W0 - 1
Bristol at home


Fulham

Bolton away.........D1 - 1
Villa at home........W2 - 0
Bristol away..........D1 - 1
Wolves at home
Derby away


Bristol City

Sunderland at home.......D3 - 3
Leeds away...................D2- 2
Fulham at home............D1 - 1
Cardiff away
Wednesday at home


Preston

Brentford away.......D1 - 1
Wolves at home......D1 - 1
Villa away..............D1 - 1
Ipswich at home
Bolton away

[De Kuip]

Cardiff must be pinching themselves looking at that set of results- it's one thing to put a little run of wins together like they have but when you look at the inconsistency of every other team over the last 3 games it's amazing.
Although you could also argue they've had the 3 easiest fixtures out of the other teams in achilles' post.

[achilles]

Something surprising looking at the teams is Millwall's recent record as they have not lost in their last 6 games, winning their last 3 away games and winning one and drawing two home games (same as Fulham's record).

[FoxyAV]

I subconsciously inserted 'agent' in front of 'Bruce' when I read this sentence! It might actually answer some questions. Did he ever really leave the noses?

However much it might pain us, Bruce is not about to change and will continue to play established players out of their natural positions so creating an imbalance within the team.

[deadbuzzardalive]

I guess realistically it would be better for us if Wolves beat Fulham, but whatever happens, a positive slant can be put on it. Also interesting to note that we're now eleven points ahead of seventh place.

[De Kuip]

I guess realistically it would be better for us if Wolves beat Fulham, but whatever happens, a positive slant can be put on it. Also interesting to note that we're now eleven points ahead of seventh place.

Yeah we'd have to be trying really hard to blow things to drop 11 points.
I'm hoping that we kick on from today cos it looked dodgy for a while.

[Saunders82]

I guess realistically it would be better for us if Wolves beat Fulham, but whatever happens, a positive slant can be put on it. Also interesting to note that we're now eleven points ahead of seventh place.

Yeah we'd have to be trying really hard to blow things to drop 11 points.
I'm hoping that we kick on from today cos it looked dodgy for a while.

Lets not tempt fate we've managed to do it before. UTV

[De Kuip]

Yeah we are good at rescuing defeat from the jaws of victory!
Almost a perfect day today - Villa and Exeter City  ( just humour me on the exeter bit - they are my local team and where a few of the kids I coached ended up) win and the knuckle draggers, tatters and dingles all lose.
Ireland beat Wales only England failed and that don't happen often.
I've got 4 days left til I retire and all my own teeth haha.
Yep, today was a goodun!
Right? Where's that bottle of Glenfiddich gone!!??

[deadbuzzardalive]

Next Saturday looks to be an interesting day if we can beat QPR, Derby and Fulham play each other, so one of them or both will drop points, Cardiff have what could be a tough game away to Brentford, and we could potentially be seven points behind Wolves, albeit probably only for a few hours.

Really hoping Bristol City can get something today, would put promotion back in our hands.

[Saunders82]

Yeah we are good at rescuing defeat from the jaws of victory!
Almost a perfect day today - Villa and Exeter City  ( just humour me on the exeter bit - they are my local team and where a few of the kids I coached ended up) win and the knuckle draggers, tatters and dingles all lose.
Ireland beat Wales only England failed and that don't happen often.
I've got 4 days left til I retire and all my own teeth haha.
Yep, today was a goodun!
Right? Where's that bottle of Glenfiddich gone!!??

Glenfiddich??? shall I get my glass?? enjoy !!!

[De Kuip]

Yeah we are good at rescuing defeat from the jaws of victory!
Almost a perfect day today - Villa and Exeter City  ( just humour me on the exeter bit - they are my local team and where a few of the kids I coached ended up) win and the knuckle draggers, tatters and dingles all lose.
Ireland beat Wales only England failed and that don't happen often.
I've got 4 days left til I retire and all my own teeth haha.
Yep, today was a goodun!
Right? Where's that bottle of Glenfiddich gone!!??

Glenfiddich??? shall I get my glass?? enjoy !!!

I enjoyed it a bit too much haha.

As Withnail said "I feel like a pig has shat in my head!".

[deadbuzzardalive]

Cardiff beat Bristol, they're going to be very hard to catch as they seem to have regained their form from before Christmas, to be fair they've been up there all season, and if it wasn't for a disastrous December, they'd probably be top of the league now, hopefully they have another blip before the season ends though.

[smetro]

Next Saturday looks to be an interesting day if we can beat QPR, Derby and Fulham play each other, so one of them or both will drop points, Cardiff have what could be a tough game away to Brentford, and we could potentially be seven points behind Wolves, albeit probably only for a few hours.

Really hoping Bristol City can get something today, would put promotion back in our hands.

I would not view Cardiffs fixture at Brentford as an overly tough fixture. Indeed I don't quite know where the Brentford hype comes from - sure they can wallop the poor teams but anyone half decent and they just seem to roll over - Hope I am wrong but that looks easy pickings for Cardiff next week

[deadbuzzardalive]

With their resources and the fact that they sold a lot of their best players to small heath, and also lost Hogan, Brentford are doing incredibly well to be in contention of getting a play-off spot.

As for rolling over against decent sides, they beat Leeds when they were doing well, and have also beaten Fulham and ourselves, and have also got draws with both Derby and Wolves.

Won't be easy for Brentford, especially as Cardiff seem to do well against the less physical teams, but they definitely have a chance.

[smetro]

With their resources and the fact that they sold a lot of their best players to small heath, and also lost Hogan, Brentford are doing incredibly well to be in contention of getting a play-off spot.

As for rolling over against decent sides, they beat Leeds when they were doing well, and have also beaten Fulham and ourselves, and have also got draws with both Derby and Wolves.

Won't be easy for Brentford, especially as Cardiff seem to do well against the less physical teams, but they definitely have a chance.

Sure they have a chance - but I think as you say they wilt under the strong physical challenge of Cardiff.

[big ming]

This is not a Bruce moan although still have huge reservations about his team selectons,tactics and use of substitutions. It's the football.Obviously,we are doing better recently but watched Fulham/Wolves last night and they are both playing a game which is light years ahead of us. They both look as if they would have a fighting chance if they got promotion whereas we continue to lurch between acceptable/good and total shambles. Why is it that,with a couple of exceptions we have often been outplayed by teams that are not really in contention despite the fact that we grubbed a result?
Sometimes our football still makes my eyes bleed.

[FoxyAV]

This is not a Bruce moan although still have huge reservations about his team selectons,tactics and use of substitutions. It's the football.Obviously,we are doing better recently but watched Fulham/Wolves last night and they are both playing a game which is light years ahead of us. They both look as if they would have a fighting chance if they got promotion whereas we continue to lurch between acceptable/good and total shambles. Why is it that,with a couple of exceptions we have often been outplayed by teams that are not really in contention despite the fact that we grubbed a result?
Sometimes our football still makes my eyes bleed.

Well, whatever Bruce is paid to do it doesn't seem to include picking the best starting 11, picking the best subs, using those subs, telling the players how to play, changing the way they play during the match and I'm sure lots more. On the plus side of late he's tried switching from a 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 but I'm not convinced it's Bruce as I can't remember the last time in almost two seasons it happened before (I stand to be corrected).

If Bruce has experts advising him how to do it all then they're either a) not working yet or b) he's not listening, although I can't believe other than a new attacking coach there's anyone taking tactical and starting 11 decisions. He needs help with these.

We're not going to take any meaningful momentum up to the PL and I can't see past a few players - Johnstone (if we buy him), Chester, Hourihane, Adomah, Grealish and Kodjia who I'd put in a PL team (anyone who's come from the PL to us is clearly out, we won't get Snodgrass or Tuanzebe and the likes of Taylor, Davis and maybe one or two more are squad players). I am also starting to think that playing Terry every match is going to backfire on us. Selling Baker has already turned out to be a very big mistake. Our U23s are clearly being trained up to sell on (that or promotion to the first division U23s league is more important than PL promotion) because if they can't get a game now how the hell will they in the PL?

What frustrates me is that we clearly have a very good set of players and they're not gelling. We can see the team selection (especially Onomah and to a certain extent grin-a-minute Whelan - who, when I heard he'd scored immediately wondered if he'd smiled), tactics and substitutions aren't working, but they're not working even when we're winning, which is often because of individual flair. Like I said before, we either play it down the flanks for the strikers to cut in, score from a set piece or a striker or midfielder like Hourihane gets a rebound or loose ball (our strikers scored something like four goals between them in the first half of the season). How often do we look at a goal and think what an excellent piece of teamwork?

[De Kuip]

I was thinking only yesterday, do people reckon our current team (I mean with Jack and Albert in it) is better than last season's Newcastle/Brighton/Huddersfield?
Because - and I'm tempting fate here - it looks like they all might stay up, which would be an excellent achievement.
If they do stay up it's not likely to be by a comfortable margin for all 3 though, so i was wondering that if we got promoted  (and im assuming  if we had a decent war chest to buy players), do people think we'd stay up?
FFP allied to wasted purchases and wages puts us in a difficult position as if we did stay down, we might enter a financial vicious circle, whereas even a season in the Prem brings riches the championship can only dream of.
So personally I'm torn - mainly cos of Bruce's style of (or lack of) play - between really consolidating and feeling confident we enter the Prem maybe a season later with a progressive manager and with a lasting chance to kick on. This extra championship season might be financially crippling though and high risk, or scraping into the Prem and hoping to McGrath that we can hang on in there and build from that point.
Maybe one thing that might help if we did go straight up is that I think the bottom half of the Prem is weaker than it used to be, but that's only a feeling, the evidence might actually point to the opposite being the case and maybe 3 very good championship sides went up last year.
This topic drives me mad because there are so many variables!
I guess we should always feel promotion asap is the optimum goal, but I also don't want to be a yoyo club either.

[FoxyAV]

DK - I don't think we have a chance of going up unless our rivals start picking up key injuries. Even then it depends how the handle them.

When we went down I knew we'd have the opportunity to remove some of the dead wood, build the team around some of our exciting youth players like Grealish, buy in some players we knew we could integrate into the team to push for promotion and do it hard and well enough that the momentum plus some key additions to the team would see us safely through our first season in the PL. In our last few seasons in the PL we put up with Lambert's low possession/lucky hoofball/counter attack football followed by Sherwood and Garde chopping and changing the team and formation every week, trying to find the best use of players. Remember beating Liverpool in the cup and then finding out Sherwood had bottled it by bringing in N'Zogbia for the final?

It seems like it's taken a long time to get the squad sorted. One thing Bruce has done is find a settled starting 11 and formation. Unfortunately it's taken so long to find (due mostly to Bruce's refusal to replace anyone playing badly until they're injured and the replacement is so obviously better) that we've been playing for too long with square pegs like Whelan and Onomah. I maintain they can both play a part, just not the ones they're given to play. The team was supposed to be built around Grealish but how long after he was fit did it take for him to replace Onomah? That's right, it only happened when Onomah was injured.

I watched at the Fulham match as time after time whenever Johnstone had the ball he'd hold it until the opposition was back in position. Hogan can only win a hoofball when he's in space and not being marked by defenders. The wingers just weren't making the effort but Johnstone was ignoring Hutton, who always tries to collect the ball and run it up the wing (why is it only Hutton seems to do this?). If the goalie has the ball he needs both options - runners tearing off down the pitch (see: Weimann, Gabby and Benteke in the Lambert years) and defenders and midfielders finding space so he can roll the ball out. If both do it at the same time it gives the opposition a headache and gives us space to play in. Wait for it all to settle down and then punt the ball long and Johnstone may as well just kick the ball into touch, it almost always comes back to us. It relies on luck.

We would be taken apart in the Premier League. In fact we're being taken apart game after game in the Championship. I went to the Reading match and it was embarrassing, they just passed their way round or through us and should have scored more. How many shots did Sheffield have at the weekend?

If we make it to the PL we're going to have to buy a LOT of players, and that's what happened every year under Lerner. It's not the answer. We need a team that plays as a team and right now we don't have anything like that. If we don't get automatic promotion I don't think we will make it through the playoffs. We'll be outplayed by managers with teams that have cost a fraction of what Xia has spent on us and they'll be working as cohesive units, not a collection of parts.

If we don't make second we'll have to face one or two of Wolves, Cardiff, Derby and Fulham. Let alone anyone else going on a late run and playing with confidence. We have to hope they hit injury problems but even had we had the likes of Kodjia, Grealish, Green and Terry fit all season would we even be where we are? Somehow I doubt we'd be any better off than we were last season.

[Dions_Bald_Head]

Thanks @FoxyAV for taking the time to read my mind & articulate my long-standing thoughts for me (but please ignore anything you see about my wife/work/anything else).

The only difference is I still think there's a chance we could go up but it'll be accompanied by all the usual scrape-over-the-line, cat-out-of-the-bag mumblings. We have some game-changing players & players that can more up a gear (eventually).

But that drops us back into the PL in a state too close to how we spent the last four seasons in it last time. Yes we have a more stable back room & ownership which can react quicker to problems but prioritising promotion over building has been a waste of opportunity which would have given us an edge against the Transfer Cherry-Pickers. The trouble is, have we spent too long for comfort in the Championship now to devote another couple of seasons to re-building if we do miss-out in the play-offs?

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