So what's our strongest first 11?

I keep slating Sherwood cause he clearly doesn't know something so fundamental and basic, and I kinda expect us all to agree on it.

So lets have it, what's your preferred tactic and first 11. Lets see if us fans on TBAR can agree on what Sherwood is doing wrong.

I still maintain our best tactic is 433. It's suited for the few attacking players we got. It's a tactic that can plow over shit teams and defend well against strong teams in a 451 transition.

I'm generally a big fan of playing those who are in form and performed like it the previous match.

Currently I feel this is our strongest first 11 (however I'd gladly replace a few of them in a heartbeat).

Guzan
Hutton - Richards - Clark - Amavi
Veretout - Gueye - Grealish

Gil - Kozak - Ayew

I really do think Westwood is a good footballer, but I can't see past us having some creativity in midfield. Guess we could replace Grealish with Westwood in matches where we know we gotta fight it out for a single point, i.e. the best teams.

If it's a bad idea for a thread for whatever reason, just delete it.

I'd go 4-4-2 (I explain why later on), where I'm struggling is with the current strongest team, as I think some of the team are stronger for having played, than others who might have been stronger had they had game time (I would put Kozak in that camp).
Now, if you asked me who I'd like to see eventually line up as the strongest team (a kind of fantasy really as I can't see how a couple of mine would get enough run of games to bed in, but bear with me anyway) I would like:
Illori - Richards - Clarke - Amavi

Traore - Veretout - Gueye - Grealish

        Gestede - Ayew

Rationale: I would usually prefer 4-3-3 and may consider it at home, but for the players we have, I think 4-4-2 is useful, as I would actually be expecting it to be a fluid change of formation during attacks to a quasi 4-3-3 as I would expect Jack or Adama or Gill to occupy a slot just in behind the front two.
I get your inclusion of Kozak, and at £7 mill it's a disgrace we don't see him at least get a chance, but with Traore in as an out & out winger, I expect to see plenty of service to Gestede, and when that happens, he's been scoring.
I was almost tempted to drop Ayew and stick Gil up alongside Gestede, but that's because I'm an old romantic and wish that Gil/Gestede would replicate the Brian Little/Peter Withe days (said it was a fantasy team didn't I?!) and know that it wouldn't work like that.
I still think Clarke is a liability, but with Lescott being a liability+, I think Clark gets the shout.
Illori in just because I think he'll be great for us.
So there you go,
*prepares to get flamed*

Interesting. I think Traore is an exciting bench option, but I feel he is just too raw atm. When I've seen him he tends to run at defenders and lose the ball and that's it.

I considered Illori, but I haven't really seen him play.

Gestede strikes me as a very limited striker. I know he has scored a few and I was impressed against Liverpool, but I honestly feel he handicaps our attacking play. We got such intelligent footballers like Gil and Grealish. Forcing them into a situation where we have to hoof the ball cause our striker is rubbish at everything else is unfortunate to put it mildly.

Yeah agreed about Gestede, but I have to keep him in my team until he has games when he gets plenty of service and does noting with it - for me, when he gets the right service, something happens. In my mind, the service to him would be from wingplay & crosses - the moment we hoof long,straight balls to him - we've run out of ideas. Do you know what - and by current footballing tactics it seems about as modern as an 8-track player in a Ford Capri -  if I'm honest I still hanker after the days when the wingers take on and skin defenders, flight a cross in to the 6 yard box from out wide on the by-line and a big number 9 smashes it into the net from a towering header. That kind of goal still gladdens my heart, and I tell you what, when we ruled Europe, the European teams never could cope with that very British way of scoring.

I can really understand why you picked Ayew, and to be honest, if he comes good for us (and I really hope he does) you have consistently had faith in him and said he will deliver so fair play, but I have to put him in the camp of "had some games, not quite got there yet".

Also, I've picked my team with potential in mind as well, hence the inclusion of Illori, because when you think about it - apart from good reports - I haven't got a clue whether he'd do a job or not, I just really want him to....

Strongest first XI will depend on who we're playing and if we're home or away.

I believe that, if at home, we should go at the opposition and dictate the play. Same goes for if we're playing teams like Watford, Stoke, etc away (poor form to disrespect them but....well, fuck 'em!).

Away against other midtable teams, we should prepare differently and make them come at us. But then, it wouldn't hurt to rock their boat a little and surprise them by having a go!

The best solution for me is one that would be very fluid with easily changeable tactics and players that can cover each other (i.e. not Sinclair covering for Hutton!).

So with that in mind, I'd like to see something like:

---------------------Guzan---------------
Hutton-----Richards----Clark----Amavi
--------Westwood-------Gana-----------
-----------------Veretout----------------
----------Gil-------------------Grealish--
--------------------Ayew-----------------

That's a team that can play with the ball on the deck and threaten the opposition coming through the middle. If we're going to sit back and defend a bit and play on the fast break and try and lob the ball into the box, then you just get Gil and Grealish to play a bit wider and replace Ayew with Gestede/Jested.

If Amavi goes for a jog up-field, then one of Gana, Westwood or Veretout should be under instruction to go with him (and Grealish) whilst the other two slide over to cover any counter attack.

Same goes for any attack coming down Hutton's side.

If we're coming through the middle, then Hutton and Amavi both move up to stop the opposition wingers getting any ideas and two of Westwood/Gana/Veretout move up in support with one of Grealish/Gil coming inside to help and the other one hanging out wide to give us an option there.

If the opposition fullback is a bit shit and Gil has run him ragged, get Traore on to finish the job. Grealish, Gil, Ayew should all be encouraged to swap around and cause the other team absolute nightmares. And while they're busy, the other midfielders can boss the game.

If we're fully defensive then get Gabby out there and hoof if needed. If we're being blocked through the middle by a packed-out midfield, the swap Ayew for Gestede/Jested and get the ball wide.

If we're up and cruising....Sanchez.

I'm torn between a couple of different options

My back 4 is always the same

-----------------Guzan-----------------
Hutton---Richards---Okore---Amavi

But then I flit between a diamond

----------------Sanchez----------------
---------Veretout-----Gueye----------
----------------Gil/Grealish------------

---------Ayew---------Gestede-------

4-3-3

----------------Sanchez----------------
---------Veretout-----Gueye----------

Traore-------------------------Grealish
-----------------Gestede---------------

And 4-4-1-1

---------Veretout-----Gueye----------
Traore-------------------------Grealish
--------------------Gil-------------------
------------------Ayew-----------------

I keep including Sanchez because, unlike Westy, with him there the 5 ahead of him and our fullbacks all have a bit of cover at the back when they are attacking. Westwood has a role to play but he wouldn't be starting for me. 

The diamond is a bit narrow but Ayew and Gil/Grealish could stretch out wide. the 4-4-1-1 would give Gil license to roam behind the striker and that his best role IMO It'd also give the defence a lot to worry about with Adama and Jack out wide causing trouble. Would we have enough goals between them and Ayew would be my concern but you can only play Gestede if the service is coming from crosses

It's interesting to see a healthy set of alternatives and I can see merit in all of them, even if I prefer some more. Trotters makes a good point about who we're playing, so I guess a strongest 11 would be affected by that, long gone are the days when you knew who the team would be whilst you were walking to the ground as that's who it was last week.
I also think that the variation in options reflects the newness of the squad, but also Tim's scatter-gun approach to team selection, meaning when we do see players, they are often out of position or devoid of tactical advice, so who knows what their full potential is. There are exceptions and we all have those common players in our teams above, but for me, there are too many variables that didn't need to have been variables had a proper strategy been formulated and followed.
Funnily enough my points about players out of position and puzzling tactics (let alone poor results) are exactly what got Rodgers the sack from Liverpool.

De Kuip wrote:long gone are the days when you knew who the team would be whilst you were walking to the ground as that's who it was last week.

I wouldn't say long gone, when was MoN sacked? 

273 managers ago.

------------------Guzan------------------
Richards----Lescott----Okore----Amavi
-----------------Sanchez-----------------
---------Veretout--------Gueye----------
--Gil----------------------------Grealish--
--------------------Kozak-----------------
Would be the line up I'd like to see, how ever it would obviously depend on opposition etc. looking at the way everyones suggestions are different just goes to show how we can't really say for certain who is best in any given position or how much our team selections are based on personal preference. For example I can't see how Gestede gets picked over Kozak when his movement is worse and he has has the first touch of a house brick in comparison, but I'm basing this on performances by Kozak prior to his injury, and very little game time by Gestede for us.

Trotters wrote:273 managers ago

Let's make it 274 then............................

Synopsis wrote:------------------Guzan------------------
Richards----Lescott----Okore----Amavi
-----------------Sanchez-----------------
---------Veretout--------Gueye----------
--Gil----------------------------Grealish--
--------------------Kozak-----------------
Would be the line up I'd like to see, how ever it would obviously depend on opposition etc. looking at the way everyones suggestions are different just goes to show how we can't really say for certain who is best in any given position or how much our team selections are based on personal preference. For example I can't see how Gestede gets picked over Kozak when his movement is worse and he has has the first touch of a house brick in comparison, but I'm basing this on performances by Kozak prior to his injury, and very little game time by Gestede for us.

I'd just worry about sliding Richards out to RB when he's the only consistent performer in the centre of defence. I'm not belittling the RB position - I played RB for most of my (only amateur) footballing life, but to shift out our powerhouse in the middle to deal with only 1 side of the pitch would worry me.

Me, too. Had this been suggested prior to the season kicking off, I'd be all for it.

Not now, though.

No Clark, Synopsis?

Moving Richards to RB could do 2 things:

Weaken us in central defence as he's been rock solid there

Piss off our captain who was told he would start in the middle and has been outstanding there

It would be unthinkable to do this. Therefore, expect Tim to shift him out there immediately

Trotters wrote:
So with that in mind, I'd like to see something like:

---------------------Guzan---------------
Hutton-----Richards----Clark----Amavi
--------Westwood-------Gana-----------
-----------------Veretout----------------
----------Gil-------------------Grealish--
--------------------Ayew-----------------

That's a team that can play with the ball on the deck

I like this. Though it must be said that's basically a 433

I'd like to see this team playing. 3511

--------------------Guzan-----------------

      ---Okore---Richards---Clarke--

Baccuna---------Sanchez-----------Amavi

----------Veretout--------Gueye----------

   -------------------Gil/------------

 ------------------Gestede------------

That team above looks awful to me. Basically limits our attacking to hoofing ball at Gestede.

It's however interesting that most of us tend to disagree on the tactics. Maybe this managing stuff isn't as easy as I thought.

It seems we more or less agree upon Gil, Gueye, Veretout, Amavi, Richards and Guzan though. Guess a large portion of us would agree on Clark, Grealish, Hutton and Ayew as well.

I'll do some graphs when everyone has had their say.

We can having differing opinions on formation, but we don't keep changing it week on week, plus we've all selected roughly the same players. 

Both these put us a step ahead of old Timmy boy

I don't have an issue with him trying new ideas. Fuck knows we bemoaned the predictable MoN years. But when he starts to find something that works, he breaks it. Like a kid having a temper tantrum.

Tanty Tactics Tim.

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/matches/2015-2016/epl.html/crystal-palace-vs-aston-villa

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/matches/2015-2016/epl.html/aston-villa-vs-west-brom

http://www.premierleague.com/content/premierleague/en-gb/matchday/matches/2015-2016/epl.match-report.html/liverpool-vs-aston-villa

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/matches/2015-2016/epl.html/aston-villa-vs-sunderland

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/matches/2015-2016/epl.html/leicester-vs-aston-villa

I've been looking at all our matches so far, and I honestly don't get what he's trying to do with tactics or lineup. What are we about really

On the plus side, opposition managers don't know what he's up to.
On the down side, neither do our players.

Trotters wrote:Me, too. Had this been suggested prior to the season kicking off, I'd be all for it.

Not now, though.

No Clark, Synopsis?

I dont like CC, never have, doubt I ever will, just one of those personal things though, I just don't rate him as good as everyone else seems to think he is.

I thought he was utter gash and was spewing we offered him a new contract. WHAT THAT ACTUAL FUCK!

But he's made me eat my hat...he's turning into a very decent Centre Half. Not perfect; he's no Gary Cahill. But he's improved out of sight.

The fact that none of us can seem to agree on formations or players shows what difficult job TS has on his hands. At home against majority of teams i would personally play a 4-2-3-1;

------------------Guzan----------------

Bacuna-----Richards-----Clark-----Amavi

-----------Westwood----Gana----------

Traore-------------Gil------------Grealish

-----------------Gestede----------------

Away games against majority of teams i would probably play a 4-5-1/4-3-3;


------------------Guzan----------------

Hutton-----Richards-----Clark-----Amavi

-----Westwood----Sanchez----Gana----

Traore---------------------------Grealish

------------------Gestede---------------

Veretout is improving as hes adjusting to PL life but i dont think i would be starting him over Westwood or Gana (yet.)

Ayew showed promise against small heath but dont think hes good enough to start just yet.

Be interesting to see if illori is decent, if so he 100% will be going RB for me.

UTV. :)