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Where to we go from here?

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by VTID85 on Mon May 28, 2018 8:46 pm

@Saunders82 wrote:During the dark days of our relegation to the third division and before we went from one disaster to another, eventually we got a manager in to steady the ship a little (Tommy Docherty) and move on up, which we did for a bit but then we stalled again so we brought in Vic Crowe and moved on again for a time and once again we stalled so in came Ron Saunders and off we went again all the way to the Champions of Europe. I know what you are all going to say here we go "all our yesterdays" the point I'm trying to make is the fans suffered and it was'nt nice but eventually things turned around, we should have moved on and on BUT as usual Villa management missed the boat and cocked things up, we've had some good times and bad since and now we have gone nearly full circle, hopefully if/when we get things sorted we won't cock it up again, which I don't think we will Dr Tone seems to have more about him than Deadly Doug, point I'm making is if Bruce has taken us as far as he can then he will be replaced, if he has more to give then he will stay, we can huff & puff & rant but its not up to us, management will decide, not nice but there it is.


Careful, almost reads like you're accepting failure there.

I'm being jocular, of course. Good post.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Mon May 28, 2018 9:23 pm

My post was aimed at the general idea I'm seeing that we'd be better off in the Championship because we win more games, which doesn't really make sense, as the longer we stay down here the more of a championship club we become, in terms of our infrastructure and how we are perceived, so eventually we wouldn't win more games in this divsion, as we'd just be another team like the rest of them, like as has happened to other clubs like Leeds, Wednesday, Forest and many others.

But the biggest thing I disagree with is people who say that we're better off down here, because it's better than being in a relegation battle, first season maybe we would be, but eventually I'd expect us to find our level, and to be competing in and around teams like Everton and others just outside the top six, only reason we struggled in our previous few seasons in the Premier league was because of Lerner giving up on us, but being in a relegation battle in the Premier league is not our default position, you only have to look at our history as an whole to see that.

Of course people are going to want to look to positives of being a Championship club, but this idea that some have that we're better off down here is absurd to me.

Also... 'if Bruce has taken us as far as he can then he will be replaced, if he has more to give then he will stay,', if it was as easy as that we wouldn't have anything to worry about, but obviously it doesn't work like that, and if it did we wouldn't be in the position we find ourselves in now, Round and Wyness haven't exactly showed that they make the right choices, quite the opposite in fact.


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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue May 29, 2018 7:26 am

'Dr. Tony Xia
‏Still hurting. Felt even more when you realize how much all ppl love the club, gaffer, the whole squad, including myself, have given everything but still didn’t achieve our target. Also very difficult to verify ppl showing their real personality and humanity at this tough moment.'


The way he refers to Bruce as the 'gaffer', and talks about him loving the club doesn't really suggest he's planning on sacking him anytime soon.

Losing in the final is probably the worst I've felt about the club, but if we stick with Bruce, it will come close to matching it, as we'll just be confining ourselves to another yet another year of disappointment, will also start to lose faith in Xia and his ambition as well, he should be looking to shake up the whole club, not leaving things as they are.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by Dazzle on Tue May 29, 2018 8:36 am

If Xia doesn’t have the contacts that people such as Fosun do then people can’t expect to have a top manager fall into position. I don’t think Xia does have the contacts, and neither do Wyness or Round. We appointed wrong twice under Xia when we appointed RDM and then Bruce. But that said, would things have worked out any different when you consider the upheaval behind the scenes? The club was in a pretty shocking state after relegation and change of ownership. I know people aren’t content with the word stability but it does seem we have gotten that back to a degree, and certainly the fan base has been good this season. It feels like the club is ours again. With one or two conditions attached by Xia I’m content for Bruce to have reins to start next season. I do think there will be some financial realities that some haven’t yet accepted and so I think Bruce remaining through the summer and persuading one or two vital players to remain will be crucial. This would only be our 2nd summer of stability in quite some time, so I think we need to take a deep breath and sit tight. I think sacking the manager now causes uncertainty which in turn unsettles players at a time when we could be vulnerable to other clubs circling for our better players.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue May 29, 2018 9:31 am

You don't need to part own a football agency like Fosun do with Gestifute, in order to attract a top manager, and certainly not to attract one better suited to our needs than Steve Bruce. And he's hardly brought us stability, we've already lost Johnstone, Hutton, Terry, Onomah, Grabban, Snodgrass, that's half the first team, and others will follow, all because of his failure to get us promoted despite having a £80m squad to work with, next season the team will look very different, as he himself admitted. And this idea that he should be retained because it might convince Grealish to stay doesn't make sense either, if Grealish was of the mind to only stay if Bruce stays, then I'm not sure what that would say about him, but it wouldn't be positive, the truth is, if he's staying he'll stay regardless of whether Bruce is still in charge or not, same with any other players, they'll do what they think is best for their career.

I was hoping today we'd announce his departure, but after Xia's tweet this morning, I doubt very much that Bruce is going anywhere, I hate to say it, as I've been looking for the positives with Recon, as you can see by looking in the Xia thread, but their ownership of us is starting to look like a disaster.

Expect Wyness to do the rounds in the coming days in an attempt to put a positive spin on Bruce staying, despite him saying this time last year that will be no excuses for failure, after that can you take anything he says seriously? he'll probably also try and put a positive spin on the FFP situation without actually saying very much at all.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by Dazzle on Tue May 29, 2018 10:16 am

@deadbuzzardalive wrote:You don't need to part own a football agency like Fosun do with Gestifute, in order to attract a top manager, and certainly not to attract one better suited to our needs than Steve Bruce. And he's hardly brought us stability, we've already lost Johnstone, Hutton, Terry, Onomah, Grabban, Snodgrass, that's half the first team, and others will follow, all because of his failure to get us promoted despite having a £80m squad to work with, next season the team will look very different, as he himself admitted. And this idea that he should be retained because it might convince Grealish to stay doesn't make sense either, if Grealish was of the mind to only stay if Bruce stays, then I'm not sure what that would say about him, but it wouldn't be positive, the truth is, if he's staying he'll stay regardless of whether Bruce is still in charge or not, same with any other players, they'll do what they think is best for their career.

I was hoping today we'd announce his departure, but after Xia's tweet this morning, I doubt very much that Bruce is going anywhere, I hate to say it, as I've been looking for the positives with Recon, as you can see by looking in the Xia thread, but their ownership of us is starting to look like a disaster.

Expect Wyness to do the rounds in the coming days in an attempt to put a positive spin on Bruce staying, despite him saying this time last year that will be no excuses for failure, after that can you take anything he says seriously? he'll probably also try and put a positive spin on the FFP situation without actually saying very much at all.

All those players you list were never our players, it was only ever winning promotion that might have resulted in two or three of them staying on a permanent basis. And it’s because of previous silly spending that we’ve had to do loans. I’m not Bruce’s biggest fan by any stretch but we mustn’t blame him for everything. McCormack, Richards, Gabby, DeLaet, Gollini, Gardner, Tshibola, etc were problems already here, expensive problems. I blame him for getting in the like of Lansbury and Hogan with seemingly no coherent plan to utilise them to the best of their abilities. We’ve no choice now but to find a way
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue May 29, 2018 11:12 am

Johnstone would have been signed, Terry said that if promoted he wanted to stay on, Bruce said that Hutton would be offered a new contract if promoted, he also said that he wanted to make the Snodgrass and Onomah deals permanent, besides it's not just those loans going back that's resulted in the instability, it's also the short-termism of so many of our other signings, signing players well into their thirties meaning they'd have to be replaced in a few years anyway and because of their ages we wouldn't get any money back for them, and no it's not just Bruce's fault, whoever's in charge of recruitment, scouting and negotiating wages, also has to take some of the blame.


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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by bruka on Tue May 29, 2018 12:21 pm

With FFP in mind right now i would be looking at getting in the likes of Erhan Oztumer, Dean Henderson and Jack Marriott, with the right coaching and a bit of savvy transfer business ie sell on clauses rather than inflated transfer fees and larger performace related bonuses rather than high wages we could end up turning a profit.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue May 29, 2018 12:44 pm

Not even sure if we can even afford those players, Peterborough supposedly want £6m for Marriott, so he's definitely out of the question, Oztumer seems to be very highly rated so I'm guessing he wouldn't come cheap either. We're probably going to have to rely on loans, but it won't be like last season when we could afford loan fees and big wages, we need to be clever, I'm sure there are plenty of players on the continent we could go for on loan who'd offer better value for money than the domestic market.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by bruka on Tue May 29, 2018 2:31 pm

Wonder if we could convince United to cough up £30 mil for Grealish and loan him back to us for a season so he gets football week in, week out.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by jeffvilla on Tue May 29, 2018 3:08 pm

@bruka wrote:Wonder if we could convince United to cough up £30 mil for Grealish and loan him back to us for a season so he gets football week in, week out.



So what the worst they could do, say no.

Anyway I would like to keep Grealish, as he has now matured into a excellent player.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by FoxyAV on Tue May 29, 2018 4:23 pm

@jeffvilla wrote:
@bruka wrote:Wonder if we could convince United to cough up £30 mil for Grealish and loan him back to us for a season so he gets football week in, week out.



So what the worst they could do, say no.

Anyway I would like to keep Grealish, as he has now matured into a excellent player.

Yes, and imagine how good he'd be if a decent manager built the team around a passing game rather than hoof-and-hope.


In response to an earlier post, has Gollini gone for good? I thought he was starting to look good but with the departure of RDM he lost his Italian goalkeeping coach, which was a condition of playing for us. I'm not surprised he wasn't happy here. I think there's a good player in Tish too, look how far Grealish has come since his days of laughing gas and being photographed flat on the floor unconscious. It seems like Tish needs some decent guidance, not being pushed out on loan somewhere he doesn't want to be. He was highly rated at Reading, let's give him a chance, even if that means slotting him into the U23s until he's shown he's ready.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue May 29, 2018 4:47 pm

I don't think Tshibola was as bad as some made out, good on the ball just needed to impose himself a bit more on games I suppose, but Grealish has always been on another level to him even before this season, besides I think we'll be stuck with Jedinak and Whelan given the wages that they're on, probably Lansbury as well, so I'm not sure if there will be much room for Tshibola, I suspect we might lose Bjarnasson as well for similar reasons, and he'd bring in a couple of million.

As for Gollini he's still our player and has returns from his loan at Atlanta this summer, keep forgetting about him.

Edit: He's apparently joining Atlanta on a permanent basis for €3.5m.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by AstonThriller on Tue May 29, 2018 6:37 pm

I must admit, before the final I did wonder what our future would be in the prem with Potato head. I suspected it would be countless games of defending for our lives and trying to nick games just like it's been in the championship and this is the only silver lining i see in regards to us not going up. IF the club has enough balls to implement a new philosophy into the club as far as creating a new culture of passing and keeping possession, then I'm happy to accept another season in the championship as I believe it's a philosophy that could bear fruit for many years to come. But if they contrive to just stand still and stick with the same losing formula, then it will simply confirm that Xia's ambition is not what we thought it was and Wyness/Round are giving him the runaround.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by achilles on Tue May 29, 2018 8:49 pm

Bruce has been very clever as he knows the board can't afford to sack him, so he is not going to resign.
The future is looking pretty bleak and the Doctor won't be rushing to make any statement until he has reappraised the implications of remaining in the Championship.

Never for one moment did I ever think that Bruce would get us promoted, just devastated to be proved correct.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by bruka on Tue May 29, 2018 8:55 pm

There are so many leeches at Villa right now it's sickening - Micah Richards is the chief culprit but i include Bruce in that too. We really need to get soemone in Wyness and Rounds positions who can exploit things like pay as you play, goal bonuses and performance related transfer payments.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by Saunders82 on Tue May 29, 2018 9:05 pm

@VTID85 wrote:
@Saunders82 wrote:During the dark days of our relegation to the third division and before we went from one disaster to another, eventually we got a manager in to steady the ship a little (Tommy Docherty) and move on up, which we did for a bit but then we stalled again so we brought in Vic Crowe and moved on again for a time and once again we stalled so in came Ron Saunders and off we went again all the way to the Champions of Europe. I know what you are all going to say here we go "all our yesterdays" the point I'm trying to make is the fans suffered and it was'nt nice but eventually things turned around, we should have moved on and on BUT as usual Villa management missed the boat and cocked things up, we've had some good times and bad since and now we have gone nearly full circle, hopefully if/when we get things sorted we won't cock it up again, which I don't think we will Dr Tone seems to have more about him than Deadly Doug, point I'm making is if Bruce has taken us as far as he can then he will be replaced, if he has more to give then he will stay, we can huff & puff & rant but its not up to us, management will decide, not nice but there it is.


Careful, almost reads like you're accepting failure there.

I'm being jocular, of course. Good post.

Definitely NOT accepting failure, just trying to point out that unfortunately we have been in a similar situation before, we did get out of it but it took lots of time and tears off the fans. When football changed years ago Villa management still carried on in the same way, so we perennially struggle at present, this club needs to get themselves sorted in the boardroom as well as on the pitch.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by AstonThriller on Tue May 29, 2018 10:08 pm

@achilles wrote:Bruce has been very clever as he knows the board can't afford to sack him, so he is not going to resign.
The future is looking pretty bleak and the Doctor won't be rushing to make any statement until he has reappraised the implications of remaining in the Championship.

Never for one moment did I ever think that Bruce would get us promoted, just devastated to be proved correct.

Bruce is on a one year rolling contract, so they could sack him with no problem.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by FoxyAV on Wed May 30, 2018 9:42 am

@AstonThriller wrote:
@achilles wrote:Bruce has been very clever as he knows the board can't afford to sack him, so he is not going to resign.
The future is looking pretty bleak and the Doctor won't be rushing to make any statement until he has reappraised the implications of remaining in the Championship.

Never for one moment did I ever think that Bruce would get us promoted, just devastated to be proved correct.

Bruce is on a one year rolling contract, so they could sack him with no problem.

That's the best news I've heard all day.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by achilles on Wed May 30, 2018 12:24 pm

@AstonThriller wrote:
@achilles wrote:Bruce has been very clever as he knows the board can't afford to sack him, so he is not going to resign.
The future is looking pretty bleak and the Doctor won't be rushing to make any statement until he has reappraised the implications of remaining in the Championship.

Never for one moment did I ever think that Bruce would get us promoted, just devastated to be proved correct.

Bruce is on a one year rolling contract, so they could sack him with no problem.

That means that they have to pay him a minimum of a years salary to sack him at any point in time, so it is a problem!
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by The Utterer on Wed May 30, 2018 3:07 pm

Sadly i think talk of a promotion push next season is quite ridiculous under the circumstances. We failed this season and that was with the better players in the team most of whom have now departed.

Barring a miracle i see turgid season of struggle as we adapt to being in line with the Leeds' and Forests on the football scrapheap.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Wed May 30, 2018 3:16 pm

The thing to remember is that we failed when we shouldn't have, because of Bruce, with a better manager in charge we'd have a better chance even with a so called weaker team, I say 'so called', because if we're clever with the loan system, and the likes of Hepburn-Murphy and Green stay fit, we could actually be stronger next season, as strange as that may sound.

It all comes down to bringing in a decent manager though, which frustratingly we're not seeing signs of happening; I do find it strange though that Wyness hasn't tweet since the game on Saturday, not even a sentence expressing his disappointment or thanking the fans for their support.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Wed May 30, 2018 3:25 pm

That's looking at things very optimistically though, we do have a bit of hope dependent on the club doing the right thing, but the fact of the matter we're in the worst state of affairs we've been in for a long time, and things could get even worse, time for Xia to show that he's the real deal.


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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by FoxyAV on Wed May 30, 2018 3:37 pm

Remember too that our strikers scored a total between them of something like five goals in the first half of the season. Sure, we scored lots through Adomah but there are goals in them there strikers (Hogan for example) if we play an intelligent passing game like Fulham did.
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Re: Where to we go from here?

Post by bruka on Wed May 30, 2018 4:35 pm

For me we now have two options and neither of them are particularly pretty :

1. Give Bruce another go - while not my preferred option i will say that if we can get the same points tally that we did this season then i think it would be enough to take us up. The target would of course be promotion. On the plus side i think Bruce would be a big part of Grealish deciding to stay and his contacts could be useful in making sure that we don't get exploited by teams buying our players (they'll happily screw Villa over but not "good old Brucie") and of course in the loan market. For me this option's not going to work, he's had two bites of the cherry and failed twice (doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of stupidity). On top of his poor football and overall tactical ineptness i could see us being in a worse position next year with loan players leaving again and all our assets being worth considerably less.

2. Get a new manager in and completely overhaul the squad. The target here would be to get us playing a positive style of football involving passing and high pressing. We would likely lose Jack, Chester, Hourihane and maybe Kodjia to PL teams as well as getting Jedi and Whelan off the books out of choice. We would have to utilize our youth not just RBH, Davis and Green but Clarke, Sarkic, Sea, Vasillev and O'Hare as well as using the loan market in a much more progressive way with actual scouting across Europe. Once we in a position to spend we could look at cherry picking players we've had in or from League One. The downside to this is that in this scenario the play-offs would be a big ask nevermind automatic promotion (in the first year).

I can't see us replacing Bruce and Grealish and Chester staying with all the FFP problems we're having.

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Re: Where to we go from here?

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