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Who should be the next Villa manager?

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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Joppe84 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:59 am

@AstonThriller wrote:
@DelboyVilla wrote:I didn't know we had sacked Bruce? They kept that one quiet?

Blimey this seems a bit previous but I understand why. However I think we should try giving him  more time mainly because we haven't tried that for a while? I don't agree with your time frame @Joppe84 but he must be given to the end of the season at least? We have not been good at making panicky appointments in recent years?

This is a results business, and imo it would be madness to allow these poor performances/results to continue in the name of "stability". There's a good chance that come monday night we'll have lost FIVE in a row and seven out of eight games, when do we say enough is enough?

You keep saying this is a results business, but what does that even mean.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Gordonsleftboot on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:12 am

@AstonThriller wrote:
@DelboyVilla wrote:I didn't know we had sacked Bruce? They kept that one quiet?

Blimey this seems a bit previous but I understand why. However I think we should try giving him  more time mainly because we haven't tried that for a while? I don't agree with your time frame @Joppe84 but he must be given to the end of the season at least? We have not been good at making panicky appointments in recent years?

This is a results business, and imo it would be madness to allow these poor performances/results to continue in the name of "stability". There's a good chance that come monday night we'll have lost FIVE in a row and seven out of eight games, when do we say enough is enough?

One name missing from your list was Olof Mellberg. If I'm reading Swedish correctly (!) his team got promoted as champions in their latest season.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by AstonThriller on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:44 am

@Joppe84 wrote:

You keep saying this is a results business, but what does that even mean.

That he's paid to have us not lose seven out of eight games after spending a fortune in January.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by AstonThriller on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:46 am

@Gordonsleftboot wrote:

One name missing from your list was Olof Mellberg. If I'm reading Swedish correctly (!) his team got promoted as champions in their latest season.

Yeah I thought about him but I'm not sure what his footballing philosophy is and if he coaches the players himself or not? Might be a little too early for him tbh but hell if he did come back I'd back him.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Joppe84 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:51 am

@AstonThriller wrote:
@Joppe84 wrote:

You keep saying this is a results business, but what does that even mean.

That he's paid to have us not lose seven out of eight games after spending a fortune in January.

All people in work are paid to do a specific job. Fact is that you won't get it right all the time. Here's a quote for you: “The phoenix must burn to emerge.” Pretty sure it's not a Harry Potter quote, but if we can't even give a manager 1-2 seasons to get it right, then people need to look at themselves in the mirror for a bit.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Boldfinger on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:11 am

@Joppe84 wrote:
@AstonThriller wrote:
@Joppe84 wrote:

You keep saying this is a results business, but what does that even mean.

That he's paid to have us not lose seven out of eight games after spending a fortune in January.

All people in work are paid to do a specific job. Fact is that you won't get it right all the time. Here's a quote for you: “The phoenix must burn to emerge.” Pretty sure it's not a Harry Potter quote, but if we can't even give a manager 1-2 seasons to get it right, then people need to look at themselves in the mirror for a bit.

quick question - does that stand if we suffer another relegation?

i am neither bruce in or bruce out, i just don't believe that any manager can be given a year or two regardless of results in fact that is bollocks mate.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Joppe84 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:02 am

In my opinion yes. If we were to be relegated I'd keep him on.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Trotters on Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:55 pm

In regards to the "results business" question, you can't look at the club like a regular business with a few competitors. Since stupid money has come into it, I see football more like Wall St....fucking wankers everywhere that have ruined what was once a brilliant public institution and to be successful you need to be a ruthless, heartless, shitbag who performs at the highest level at every minute. And if you don't, then get the fuck out!

Bruce isn't getting $80,000 a year to run the day to day operations of a small business. He's in the high performance industry and gets paid a high performance wage. Is it ridiculous to expect a high performance? I don't think so. But there's no sign of that. At all. Not a sniff. He genuinely looks like he's completely lost the plot.

And for that he needs to be gone.

He has no idea how to motivate the players he's spent a shit-tonne of money on. His most recent comments are testament to that (and there seems a real disconnect between him and Round here who you would think would be fairly insistent on not having players miles out of position). He seems to have genuinely cracked under the pressure he's now under, is making some decisions that can only be described as bizarre and others that can only be described as pig-headed (I'm referring to the goalkeeper problem).

Frankly, I don't give a shit if Xia hires and fires another half a dozen managers until he finds the one that works for us. We simply can't be giving more time to a man who is going backwards at a rapid rate. If we started the season with the exact squad that we ended the last disastrous season with and played Barnsley at home first game and had that result, then....what the fuck? The fact that the majority of those wasters have been moved on and we've got in the best that this league has to offer makes the loss to Barnsley so unpalatable that I want to be sick in my own mouth. Repeatedly.

Should we have an automatic right to expect to beat a team like Barnsley? Absolutely fucking yes! With this squad? Yes yes a thousand times yes.

That we got hammered with repeated sucker punches, that we suffered from mistakes of our own doing, that we have ex players like Ian Taylor on Twitter saying how naive and amateurish our errors were points directly at one man.

A man who took the job, accepted the conditions and the money, and who is failing so badly it's almost beyond words. I'm not being dramatic either. Continue in this form and we WILL be relegated.

Can anyone see where our next win is coming from? I dunno when we play whoever is bottom but would anyone here be willing to bet something more than they can really afford on a Villa win? I bet there's no one. And if that the level we've descended to then Bruce needs to go.

The only reason I'd keep him around is because we don't have anyone I'd want to see as caretaker manager. Certainly not Calderwood. Not Little. And I'd hate to see Xia bring in someone temporary and give them any meaningful contract other than week to week.

So we're in a position where we have to find someone fast enough that we don't end up in the bottom three first but take long enough that we absolutely get the right man.

But for me, Bruce isn't it. Not by a long shot.

I don't even remember the question I was answering.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Dazzle on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:16 pm

I wasn't a fan of the RDM appointment and Bruce wasn't my preferred pick. The chairman chose RDM because he was the "name" available and, imo, missed an opportunity not replacing RDM with Wagner. They sort of went against what they were telling us about wanting a style and identity and went for what was assumed tried and tested in Bruce. It's looking to have seriously backfired, no one can tell me that Wagner would not have had more success with the squad than we're seeing. It's looking like another year wasted going backwards.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Joppe84 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:19 pm

@Trotters wrote:In regards to the "results business" question, you can't look at the club like a regular business with a few competitors. Since stupid money has come into it, I see football more like Wall St....fucking wankers everywhere that have ruined what was once a brilliant public institution and to be successful you need to be a ruthless, heartless, shitbag who performs at the highest level at every minute. And if you don't, then get the fuck out!

Bruce isn't getting $80,000 a year to run the day to day operations of a small business. He's in the high performance industry and gets paid a high performance wage. Is it ridiculous to expect a high performance? I don't think so. But there's no sign of that. At all. Not a sniff. He genuinely looks like he's completely lost the plot.

And for that he needs to be gone.

He has no idea how to motivate the players he's spent a shit-tonne of money on. His most recent comments are testament to that (and there seems a real disconnect between him and Round here who you would think would be fairly insistent on not having players miles out of position). He seems to have genuinely cracked under the pressure he's now under, is making some decisions that can only be described as bizarre and others that can only be described as pig-headed (I'm referring to the goalkeeper problem).

Frankly, I don't give a shit if Xia hires and fires another half a dozen managers until he finds the one that works for us. We simply can't be giving more time to a man who is going backwards at a rapid rate. If we started the season with the exact squad that we ended the last disastrous season with and played Barnsley at home first game and had that result, then....what the fuck? The fact that the majority of those wasters have been moved on and we've got in the best that this league has to offer makes the loss to Barnsley so unpalatable that I want to be sick in my own mouth. Repeatedly.

Should we have an automatic right to expect to beat a team like Barnsley? Absolutely fucking yes! With this squad? Yes yes a thousand times yes.

That we got hammered with repeated sucker punches, that we suffered from mistakes of our own doing, that we have ex players like Ian Taylor on Twitter saying how naive and amateurish our errors were points directly at one man.

A man who took the job, accepted the conditions and the money, and who is failing so badly it's almost beyond words. I'm not being dramatic either. Continue in this form and we WILL be relegated.

Can anyone see where our next win is coming from? I dunno when we play whoever is bottom but would anyone here be willing to bet something more than they can really afford on a Villa win? I bet there's no one. And if that the level we've descended to then Bruce needs to go.

The only reason I'd keep him around is because we don't have anyone I'd want to see as caretaker manager. Certainly not Calderwood. Not Little. And I'd hate to see Xia bring in someone temporary and give them any meaningful contract other than week to week.

So we're in a position where we have to find someone fast enough that we don't end up in the bottom three first but take long enough that we absolutely get the right man.

But for me, Bruce isn't it. Not by a long shot.

I don't even remember the question I was answering.

I read all this and it's essentially " we have money. we spend more money than others, thus we should demand success". And you're wrong, unfortunately. It doesn't work that way. Which is why continuity is everything.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Trotters on Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:23 pm

I can't recall what the story was with Vaaargner but a manager has got to want to come and we may well have been prepared to roll out the red carpet for him but if he's happy where he was, then.there's not a lot to be done.

Tempting someone who from the lesser known leagues in Europe would be far easier.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Trotters on Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Also, remember when we got relegated we were talking about how tough this league was physically and blood was being spilled all over for those first few games? Is it just me or would a manager without any experience of this league at all do perfectly fine with the payers we have?
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:02 pm

Continuity isn't everything Brighton, Leeds, Derby, Reading, Huddersfield and others have all been through a number of managers before coming across the right person for the job. There are examples in the Premier league too, Chelsea being the obvious example.

I remember hearing Gabriel Marcotti talking on the radio, about how in England there's a strange obsession with giving managers lots of time because of Ferguson at United. But in mainland Europe there's not really that culture, and clubs are more ready to make a change if things aren't going right.

Our problem has been that we've appointed a string of dinosaur mangers who play hoof-ball and seem to think 'passion' is the answer to everything rather than actual tactics, until we stop that cycle we won't be going anywhere fast.






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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Dazzle on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:12 pm

@deadbuzzardalive wrote:Continuity isn't everything Brighton, Leeds, Derby, Reading, Huddersfield and others have all been through a number of managers before coming across the right person for the job. There are examples in the Premier league too, Chelsea being the obvious example.

I remember hearing Gabriel Marcotti talking on the radio, about how in England there's a strange obsession with giving managers lots of time because of Ferguson at United. But in mainland Europe there's not really that culture, and clubs are more ready to make a change if things aren't going right.

Our problem has been that we've appointed a string of dinosaur mangers who play hoof-ball and seem to think 'passion' is the answer to everything rather than actual tactics, until we stop that cycle we won't be going anywhere fast.


Good post. A good example you've mentioned is Chelsea. There we have a club that didn't do much last season, wasn't fancied this season, and started the season so-so with a new manager. But...............that manager soon found out what system to play to suit the players he had at his disposal best. Against current formation "trends" Conte decided that 3 at the back worked for Chelsea, and one of their better players this season has been Victor Moses, a player much maligned and discarded by others. That's a proper manager, and Chelsea are as near to running away with the league as you can get. Look how quick Stam has gotten results at Reading, or Wagner with a complete new team at Huddersfield, or you could even look to Swansea and see the current turnaround in their performances and results under Clement. All young, apparently inexperienced managers that are doing the business far better than what's at Villa. I don't think Dr Tone has been half as canny as he thinks, in fact I think he's been poorly advised and taken it onboard with possibly too much trust, but that's what might happen if you have to rely on other people for an insight into the workings of English football. Plenty of people out there willing to take the coin and fuck you over with yes sir no sir patter. I think anyone would have to be stretching their imagination to see Bruce as the type of manager with a philosophy and long term plan, which as I mentioned in a previous post goes against what the club stated as its aim for identity and playing style. I've personally never associated Bruce with any style, or any particular formation traits. It's my opinion that the Doctor REALLY wanted promotion this season and hence the appointment of Bruce who was viewed as the promotion man, I think it was taken for granted that he would get us into the playoffs as a minimum. After the initial new manager bounce it's completely fallen to shit, as horrendous a run of results as you might have dreamt in your worst nightmare. I never once thought we'd lose to Ipswich and Barnsley in the last two games, so I'm getting nasty surprise after nasty surprise with this team at the moment. And Bruce is exclusively responsible for it. I'm really not sure where Dr Tone goes from here, it's stick or twist time after the next two games.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Joppe84 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:26 am

@deadbuzzardalive wrote:Continuity isn't everything Brighton, Leeds, Derby, Reading, Huddersfield and others have all been through a number of managers before coming across the right person for the job. There are examples in the Premier league too, Chelsea being the obvious example.

I remember hearing Gabriel Marcotti talking on the radio, about how in England there's a strange obsession with giving managers lots of time because of Ferguson at United. But in mainland Europe there's not really that culture, and clubs are more ready to make a change if things aren't going right.

Our problem has been that we've appointed a string of dinosaur mangers who play hoof-ball and seem to think 'passion' is the answer to everything rather than actual tactics, until we stop that cycle we won't be going anywhere fast.



It's a good post you make, but I think it's rather pointless arguing you can have a revolving door to success, when the argument should lie at whether it's the most effective approach. Everyone can luck out and win the lottery. You're probably better off with an index fund though.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:53 am

We need a certain amount of stability, I mean three managers in one season isn't good, nor five managers in two seasons. So we could do without sacking yet another manager, but unfortunately we keep putting ourselves in the position where eventually we have to replace managers, by hiring the wrong people in the first place.

Stability is only good with the right person in charge. Of course some people think that person is Bruce, some don't, lets hope whilst he's here that the former are right.

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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by NARLA24 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:16 am

Stick with Bruce for this season imo. Then , if we are dogshit next season early on go and find another manager. Still got a feeling that we will click into gear, possibly against Toon on Monday night. We cannot keep changing managers all the time. Give Bruce more time and we can make a proper judgement at the end of the season.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Dazzle on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:04 pm

@NARLA24 wrote:Stick with Bruce for this season imo. Then , if we are dogshit next season early on go and find another manager. Still got a feeling that we will click into gear, possibly against Toon on Monday night. We cannot keep changing managers all the time. Give Bruce more time and we can make a proper judgement at the end of the season.

I'd have to see some real forward momentum and improvements between now and seasons end to warrant going into a new season with Bruce. If things remain around the level we're witnessing at the moment then I absolutely would not support going into next season with Bruce as manager. 15 games left and I personally need to be seeing a lot of wins from the final 10. If we're still dropping unexpected points in those last 10 then I'm sorry but we should then be looking at someone else pronto. Realistically the board need to have decided what to do a couple weeks before seasons end and get on with things so that no pre-season is lost.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Saunders82 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:49 pm

@NARLA24 wrote:Stick with Bruce for this season imo. Then , if we are dogshit next season early on go and find another manager. Still got a feeling that we will click into gear, possibly against Toon on Monday night. We cannot keep changing managers all the time. Give Bruce more time and we can make a proper judgement at the end of the season.

I totally agree with you Narla, Dr Tone has given Brucie the players to improve us in certain positions, unfortunately we still have problems in other positions which should be dealt with in the summer, meanwhile we have to be patient for the remainder of this season and hope that the team click into position, if this happens everyone will forget these bad times. This season has been a washout for me, we have been dogshite, so I have marked it down as a learning curve, if however we start off next season in the same mode then obviously something needs to be changed, the one saving grace is that we can see that Newcastle, Brighton + one other will do the business this season and the others who IMO are playing out of their socks this season won't get much better, whereas our squad has the potential to get far far better so next season COULD be a march of triumph to the prem, on the other hand things could stay the same as now, ONLY TIME WILL TELL, Scarf Waving Scarf Waving Scarf Waving
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by De Kuip on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:02 pm

@Saunders82 wrote:
@NARLA24 wrote:Stick with Bruce for this season imo. Then , if we are dogshit next season early on go and find another manager. Still got a feeling that we will click into gear, possibly against Toon on Monday night. We cannot keep changing managers all the time. Give Bruce more time and we can make a proper judgement at the end of the season.

I totally agree with you Narla, Dr Tone has given Brucie the players to improve us in certain positions, unfortunately we still have problems in other positions which should be dealt with in the summer, meanwhile we have to be patient for the remainder of this season and hope that the team click into position, if this happens everyone will forget these bad times. This season has been a washout for me, we have been dogshite, so I have marked it down as a learning curve, if however we start off next season in the same mode then obviously something needs to be changed, the one saving grace is that we can see that Newcastle, Brighton + one other will do the business this season and the others who IMO are playing out of their socks this season won't get much better, whereas our squad has the potential to get far far better so next season COULD be a march of triumph to the prem, on the other hand things could stay the same as now, ONLY TIME WILL TELL, Scarf Waving Scarf Waving Scarf Waving
Well I don't want to piss on anyone's chips but there's also the small matter of three Prem teams that will also appear next season.
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by Trotters on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:05 pm

You chip-pisser!
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by De Kuip on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:43 pm

@Trotters wrote:You chip-pisser!

Yeah, sorry 'bout that.....
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Re: Who should be the next Villa manager?

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:10 pm

On second thoughts I think we need to try something completely different. Club needs revolution.

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