Re: January '17 Transfer Window

by Guest Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:05 pm

De Kuip wrote:Well in 2006/7 Saints were in trouble after spending a record £6m in transfer fees. They then proceeded to sell Kenwyne Jones and Gareth Bale to prevent going into administration. They continued to try and buy their way out of trouble, but to no avail and the parent company went into administration. They then got relegated to League 1 after 3 seasons in the championship, and because they were already relegated, they got deducted 10 points for going into administration. Once the Matt le Tissier bailout had happened, and Liebher took over, did they build from within, or buy? Guess what, they bought - Rickie Lambert. They stayed in League 1 for two seasons before getting promotion to the Championship, finishing runners up and returning to the Prem the season after.
So did saints buy their way out of trouble when they could? You betcha. They always had a good youth system, but they bought at every opportunity. Do I want to emulate them - no thanks - 4 seasons in the Championship and two in League 1 - of course they had time to build momentum - 6 years of it.
Leeds isn't worth responding to - the basket case of basket cases, brought on by profligate spending that made the US short-selling sub prime market of pre 2008 look positively frugal.
West ham - found guilty for fiddling the books over the Tevez & Mascherano signings - got fined a mill, but controversially didn't get deducted any points, which had they, would have meant relegation. Like Southampton, have a good academy tradition, but still spend spend spend when they can. Again, another financial struggle with Icelandic owners meant that the shirt sponsorts - SBOBET - stumped up cash so they could buy striker Allesandro Diamanti (seeing a theme yet?). I would also argue that they didn't need to build too much as they went down with a decent team in 2011. In the Championship they had players like Rob Green/Carlton Cole (scored 14 goals that season)/James Tompkins/Kevin Nolan/Mark Noble/Vaz Te and John Carew.
This is their net spending since they went back up into the Prem.:
2012/13 - £18.25M
2013/14 - £25.00M
2014/15 - 25.75M
2015/16 - £28.70M
2016/17 (summer only) - £27.60M

I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above - personally I think you literally couldn't have picked 3 worse examples to prove your point - I'm off to lie down, my head hurts - I'm leaving this stuff to AstonThriller in future

The fact that you draw examples from PL seasons says it all. Makes no sense. But each to their own.

Point was never that clubs don't spend. Point was that we are doing it in the extreme. We are failing as a football club and trying our best as an investment bank. All these three clubs have a track record of being better than us at promoting youth. We have a youth right now in Andre Green that spurs wanted, yet he isn't getting a minutes pitch time for us. At the same time people want us to BUY another winger. Plastic. No better than City at all.

No wonder your head hurts though. You just gave Wikipedia profiles of each club based upon something you could have shortened to a single paragraph. And you really need to understand that investment and player purchases in the PL and championship are two different things.

by DelboyVilla Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:49 am

Villa_Dan wrote:
DelboyVilla wrote:
Wriggle wrote:Kodjia, gabby and RHM is a decent bunch of strikers

Really? Kodjia sure but Gabby still has more cards than goals and hasn't shown me he's at his best at all. Audrey Hepburn-Murphy hasn't scored a senior goal.

I'd be ok with Gestede and Ayew going with a striker and a proper winger coming in.

Dan, I did caveat that Rhodes should be added to the list? RHM has no goals because he has not had the game time? I say rather than Gestede playing let's try RHM! Gabby has got part way to redemption in my eyes and again will do well in this league if given the game time too?

I am not too precious about selling anyone for the right price

by achilles Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:17 am

What I find most interesting is why doesn't Bruce give any of the reserves a chance even on the bench, I would love to ask him that question?

If they are so crap, sort it out, starting with getting rid of Kmac!

by **De Kuip** Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:24 am

Joppe84 wrote:
De Kuip wrote:Well in 2006/7 Saints were in trouble after spending a record £6m in transfer fees. They then proceeded to sell Kenwyne Jones and Gareth Bale to prevent going into administration. They continued to try and buy their way out of trouble, but to no avail and the parent company went into administration. They then got relegated to League 1 after 3 seasons in the championship, and because they were already relegated, they got deducted 10 points for going into administration. Once the Matt le Tissier bailout had happened, and Liebher took over, did they build from within, or buy? Guess what, they bought - Rickie Lambert. They stayed in League 1 for two seasons before getting promotion to the Championship, finishing runners up and returning to the Prem the season after.
So did saints buy their way out of trouble when they could? You betcha. They always had a good youth system, but they bought at every opportunity. Do I want to emulate them - no thanks - 4 seasons in the Championship and two in League 1 - of course they had time to build momentum - 6 years of it.
Leeds isn't worth responding to - the basket case of basket cases, brought on by profligate spending that made the US short-selling sub prime market of pre 2008 look positively frugal.
West ham - found guilty for fiddling the books over the Tevez & Mascherano signings - got fined a mill, but controversially didn't get deducted any points, which had they, would have meant relegation. Like Southampton, have a good academy tradition, but still spend spend spend when they can. Again, another financial struggle with Icelandic owners meant that the shirt sponsorts - SBOBET - stumped up cash so they could buy striker Allesandro Diamanti (seeing a theme yet?). I would also argue that they didn't need to build too much as they went down with a decent team in 2011. In the Championship they had players like Rob Green/Carlton Cole (scored 14 goals that season)/James Tompkins/Kevin Nolan/Mark Noble/Vaz Te and John Carew.
This is their net spending since they went back up into the Prem.:
2012/13 - £18.25M
2013/14 - £25.00M
2014/15 - 25.75M
2015/16 - £28.70M
2016/17 (summer only) - £27.60M

I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above - personally I think you literally couldn't have picked 3 worse examples to prove your point - I'm off to lie down, my head hurts - I'm leaving this stuff to AstonThriller in future

The fact that you draw examples from PL seasons says it all. Makes no sense. But each to their own.

Point was never that clubs don't spend. Point was that we are doing it in the extreme. We are failing as a football club and trying our best as an investment bank. All these three clubs have a track record of being better than us at promoting youth. We have a youth right now in Andre Green that spurs wanted, yet he isn't getting a minutes pitch time for us. At the same time people want us to BUY another winger. Plastic. No better than City at all.

No wonder your head hurts though. You just gave Wikipedia profiles of each club based upon something you could have shortened to a single paragraph. And you really need to understand that investment and player purchases in the PL and championship are two different things.

Thanks for educating me once more Joppe - I bow to your superior intellect.

Apologies for trying to engage by putting the effort in to respond in detail - I used some Wiki info but also added a fair bit from other places - of course I don't carry that info in my head, in that detail.

I now see that what I actually should have replied was "Joppe just used Leeds, Soton and west Ham as examples of not spending your way out of trouble hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!"

There, I feel much better now.

by **NARLA24** Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:37 am

It will be interesting to see what happens in Bruces first transfer window. I trust him to do some blinding deals for us. Roll on January.

by achilles Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:33 am

Actually I am getting excited by the January transfer window as I think Bruce may surprise us (hopefully)!

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:23 pm

De Kuip wrote:
Joppe84 wrote:
De Kuip wrote:Well in 2006/7 Saints were in trouble after spending a record £6m in transfer fees. They then proceeded to sell Kenwyne Jones and Gareth Bale to prevent going into administration. They continued to try and buy their way out of trouble, but to no avail and the parent company went into administration. They then got relegated to League 1 after 3 seasons in the championship, and because they were already relegated, they got deducted 10 points for going into administration. Once the Matt le Tissier bailout had happened, and Liebher took over, did they build from within, or buy? Guess what, they bought - Rickie Lambert. They stayed in League 1 for two seasons before getting promotion to the Championship, finishing runners up and returning to the Prem the season after.
So did saints buy their way out of trouble when they could? You betcha. They always had a good youth system, but they bought at every opportunity. Do I want to emulate them - no thanks - 4 seasons in the Championship and two in League 1 - of course they had time to build momentum - 6 years of it.
Leeds isn't worth responding to - the basket case of basket cases, brought on by profligate spending that made the US short-selling sub prime market of pre 2008 look positively frugal.
West ham - found guilty for fiddling the books over the Tevez & Mascherano signings - got fined a mill, but controversially didn't get deducted any points, which had they, would have meant relegation. Like Southampton, have a good academy tradition, but still spend spend spend when they can. Again, another financial struggle with Icelandic owners meant that the shirt sponsorts - SBOBET - stumped up cash so they could buy striker Allesandro Diamanti (seeing a theme yet?). I would also argue that they didn't need to build too much as they went down with a decent team in 2011. In the Championship they had players like Rob Green/Carlton Cole (scored 14 goals that season)/James Tompkins/Kevin Nolan/Mark Noble/Vaz Te and John Carew.
This is their net spending since they went back up into the Prem.:
2012/13 - £18.25M
2013/14 - £25.00M
2014/15 - 25.75M
2015/16 - £28.70M
2016/17 (summer only) - £27.60M

I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above - personally I think you literally couldn't have picked 3 worse examples to prove your point - I'm off to lie down, my head hurts - I'm leaving this stuff to AstonThriller in future

The fact that you draw examples from PL seasons says it all. Makes no sense. But each to their own.

Point was never that clubs don't spend. Point was that we are doing it in the extreme. We are failing as a football club and trying our best as an investment bank. All these three clubs have a track record of being better than us at promoting youth. We have a youth right now in Andre Green that spurs wanted, yet he isn't getting a minutes pitch time for us. At the same time people want us to BUY another winger. Plastic. No better than City at all.

No wonder your head hurts though. You just gave Wikipedia profiles of each club based upon something you could have shortened to a single paragraph. And you really need to understand that investment and player purchases in the PL and championship are two different things.

Thanks for educating me once more Joppe - I bow to your superior intellect.

Apologies for trying to engage by putting the effort in to respond in detail - I used some Wiki info but also added a fair bit from other places - of course I don't carry that info in my head, in that detail.

I now see that what I actually should have replied was "Joppe just used Leeds, Soton and west Ham as examples of not spending your way out of trouble hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!"

There, I feel much better now.

Christ I really am a fecking idiot

by AstonThriller Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:50 pm

achilles wrote:Actually I am getting excited by the January transfer window as I think Bruce may surprise us (hopefully)!

For me Bruce, Redknapp and Hughes are three of the best managers when it comes to the transfer market. And like you I think Bruce will have more than a few gems up his sleeve.

by deadbuzzardalive Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:55 pm

When you think of the strikers we have, and their past performances in this league we really should be scoring more goals. Hopefully that will come with improvements to the midfield. We definitely need some drive and creativity in there.

I've seen Huddlestone's name mentioned a few times, but I don't really think he's what we need.

by **De Kuip** Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:41 pm

Yeah agreed dba there's only so much you can do without a consistent and decent quality supply from midfield. I think if we sort that we'll see a better return upfront. Strikers have to have the freedom to know if they fluff a chance, it's not a disaster as another one will be along in a while. It must be crap if you miss a chance and then start stressing in case you don't get another all game. Be like constantly playing away.

by AstonThriller Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:46 pm

De Kuip wrote:Yeah agreed dba there's only so much you can do without a consistent and decent quality supply from midfield. I think if we sort that we'll see a better return upfront. Strikers have to have the freedom to know if they fluff a chance, it's not a disaster as another one will be along in a while. It must be crap if you miss a chance and then start stressing in case you don't get another all game. Be like constantly playing away.

It's a proven fact that the supply to the strikers has not been up to par. I mean for example Shelvey for Toon is putting goals on a plate for Gayle!!..we simply have no-one anywhere near his class in the middle of the park and that is pretty much the difference between the two sides. They usually go on to score two and three while we may score one and then MIGHT get a second!!..that's why we are where we are and Toon are top. After this window though I'm hoping we'll see much more goals and assists from midfield and we won't have to worry about it.

by Wriggle Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:05 pm

Villa_Dan wrote:
DelboyVilla wrote:Kodjia, gabby and RHM is a decent bunch of strikers

Really? Kodjia sure but Gabby still has more cards than goals and hasn't shown me he's at his best at all. Audrey Hepburn-Murphy hasn't scored a senior goal.

I'd be ok with Gestede and Ayew going with a striker and a proper winger coming in.

FFS can you learn to quote correctly... Delboy said they were 3 good ones not me!!!

Had me go back through the whole thread to see if i had subconsciously said Gabby was a good forward! January '17 Transfer Window - Page 6 1327487109

January '17 Transfer Window - Page 6 1327487109

by **Trotters** Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:24 pm

Joppe, I can only assume that your indifference to buying what's needed (as opposed to developing our own) is a cultural thing. I take it people in your neck of the woods make their own homes, grow their own food and make their own clothes and only buy what you would probably struggle to produce on your own....like a car.

As we've seen in the last few weeks from interviews, Villa has been left to rot by the previous owner. We don't even have a junior scouting system in our own neighbourhood so even if Xia wanted to only use home-made items, it's impossible - there too little there to make a football team from.

Yes, I'm disappointed not be seeing Green at the moment as I thought he was very good in the appearances he has made. Perhaps there are reasons behind the scenes that we don't know about that are preventing him a first team run.

As for other home-grown talent, you don't seem too keen on us playing Gardner and he's the most homest-grownest talent we have. Well, apart from Gabby I suppose.

But your objections to those players are well documented.

So it seems that you want to play home-grome players provided they are of the same class of players that can be bought even though we have had no way of finding such players.

But maybe you object to the club actually finding local players too...after all, that would mean poaching them from local clubs who are then stripped of their best kids.

Maybe Xia should get in hundreds of thousands of Chinese ladies and local lads to pound on them until we have a truly Villa-born-and-bred team (then you'd whinge that they look kind of yellow and slitty eyed and not Birmingham-like at all.

Maybe in ten years, our development side of things will be back to where it should have been. But fact is if we rely on that, we will no longer be a professional football club. (a) because we will drop out of the football league and (b) frankly, it's not a very professional way to run things.

Is it?

And don't call people fucking idiots when they offer an alternate point of view. Address the post, not the poster.

Now, back to your garden....

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:45 am

Trotters wrote:Joppe, I can only assume that your indifference to buying what's needed (as opposed to developing our own) is a cultural thing. I take it people in your neck of the woods make their own homes, grow their own food and make their own clothes and only buy what you would probably struggle to produce on your own....like a car.

As we've seen in the last few weeks from interviews, Villa has been left to rot by the previous owner. We don't even have a junior scouting system in our own neighbourhood so even if Xia wanted to only use home-made items, it's impossible - there too little there to make a football team from.

Yes, I'm disappointed not be seeing Green at the moment as I thought he was very good in the appearances he has made. Perhaps there are reasons behind the scenes that we don't know about that are preventing him a first team run.

As for other home-grown talent, you don't seem too keen on us playing Gardner and he's the most homest-grownest talent we have. Well, apart from Gabby I suppose.

But your objections to those players are well documented.

So it seems that you want to play home-grome players provided they are of the same class of players that can be bought even though we have had no way of finding such players.

But maybe you object to the club actually finding local players too...after all, that would mean poaching them from local clubs who are then stripped of their best kids.

Maybe Xia should get in hundreds of thousands of Chinese ladies and local lads to pound on them until we have a truly Villa-born-and-bred team (then you'd whinge that they look kind of yellow and slitty eyed and not Birmingham-like at all.

Maybe in ten years, our development side of things will be back to where it should have been. But fact is if we rely on that, we will no longer be a professional football club. (a) because we will drop out of the football league and (b) frankly, it's not a very professional way to run things.

Is it?

And don't call people fucking idiots when they offer an alternate point of view. Address the post, not the poster.

Now, back to your garden....

joppe = told

by smetro Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:42 pm

achilles wrote:What I find most interesting is why doesn't Bruce give any of the reserves a chance even on the bench, I would love to ask him that question?

If they are so crap, sort it out, starting with getting rid of Kmac!

To be honest only Sherwood has given our youth players a chance. I remember everyone screaming at MON to play Bannan, Delfonso, albrighton and more. So theres probably a good reason our youth players aren't getting game time.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:55 pm

smetro wrote:
achilles wrote:What I find most interesting is why doesn't Bruce give any of the reserves a chance even on the bench, I would love to ask him that question?

If they are so crap, sort it out, starting with getting rid of Kmac!

To be honest only Sherwood has given our youth players a chance. I remember everyone screaming at MON to play Bannan, Delfonso, albrighton and more. So theres probably a good reason our youth players aren't getting game time.

you hit the nail on the head, there must be a good reason. too many people think they know more about football than the people who work in football day in day out. then all you get is" why the fock did he play that young lad etc etc"

by **Trotters** Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:44 pm

I can only guess that due to the massive limitations of the regular XI, sticking a young 'un in there would only serve to exaser.....eccasserba....excaser....would only serve to make our problems worse.

If we had a team firing on all cylinders like Newcastle have been (bar the last two weeks!!) then I'd be very disappointed not to see at least 15 minutes worth of academy kids.

by Guest Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:35 am

couple coming in people, any thoughts who it might be? alex fecking bruce maybe!! http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-transfer-news-player-12295482

by achilles Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:07 pm

Believe in Bruce! Dancing Banana

by Guest Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:20 pm

achilles wrote:Believe in Bruce!

he don't fock about our brucie does he!!

by **De Kuip** Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:08 pm

I'm thinking Pantilimon and Rhodes.

by Saunders82 Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:45 pm

jimbop wrote:couple coming in people, any thoughts who it might be? alex fecking bruce maybe!! http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-transfer-news-player-12295482

Good solid management, structure, forethought, swiftly executed, well done the Villa "Management Team" How it should be done really. January '17 Transfer Window - Page 6 1520050566

January '17 Transfer Window - Page 6 1520050566

by achilles Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:51 pm

Saunders82 wrote:
jimbop wrote:couple coming in people, any thoughts who it might be? alex fecking bruce maybe!! http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-transfer-news-player-12295482

Good solid management, structure, forethought, swiftly executed, well done the Villa "Management Team" How it should be done really.

Hopefully get them in as soon as the transfer window opens, how novel!
Things are so different, all for the better, long may it continue.
Scarf Waving

by **De Kuip** Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:08 pm

Or maybe the hull keeper - that rumour seems to be doing the rounds.....

by AstonThriller Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:56 pm

Logic would suggest that the players Bruce has lined up on loan are most probably players at Premiership clubs who aren't getting a look in right now. I'm betting on Loftus-Cheek and Tom Carroll being at least one of those deals. Sam Johnston at United maybe? Jordan Rhodes? Chuba Akpom who was with Bruce at Hull last season?

There's a few more Chelsea youngsters too like Dominic Solanke, Todd Kane and Ola Aina. In reality the loans we make aren't likely to be from teams who are struggling in the league as they will want to explore every player they have in their squads and most of them don't have major funds to play with. This is why I look to the Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal etc fringe players.

by Sponsored content