The Bells Are Ringing


WAIT!

The ads on this site tend to screw the formatting up a bit and make your visit less pleasant.

But we pay for the ads to be removed for members so why not sign up and have a better viewing experience?

Go on....Sign up. There's no messing about, it's a 20 second job!


THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:48 am

In the midst of the current speculation relating to Steve Bruce becoming our manager there's a few schools of thought. Some think his appointment would be "uninspiring", some don't like the fact that he was a nose as a player and manager for several years whilst others see that he's been relegated twice and wouldn't be good for us even if he takes us back to the promise land.

Now as I've stressed on the manager thread I'd have been all for a top European name who could sweep into Villa Park and bring a new style to the club like Arsen Wenger did twenty years ago. But the more I've looked at his record the more intrigued I've become with the prospect of Bruce rocking up at B6. Here is my line of thinking.

HIS MANAGERIAL RECORD

When one looks at his record piece by piece you'd see he hasn't actually done bad at any club he's been at. Yes he's had spells that were very poor, but the overall job hasn't been bad.

Sheff United= Finish eighth in the championship. just nine points away from the play-offs and then left after one season because the board was going through problems.

Huddersfield=  In his first season with them he finished just TWO points off a play-off spot after being in the top six for the majority of the season. The disappointment of missing out must have effected the players as the next season he was sacked not long into the campaign.

Wigan 1st time= Took them over for the last eight games of the season and got them into the play-offs. They lost the semi-final and he left.

Crystal Palace= He went to Palace quite quickly after leaving Wigan and had a massive impact, winning eleven out of eighteen games and having them top of the championship. But an issue with the board came up and the Noses showed an interest. He did the equivalent of Wagner leaving Huddersfield for another championship club

Birmingham= So he goes there when they were in midtable and we all know the story. They got into the play-offs and they won the final via a penalty shoot-out. He would then keep them in the premiership for four years, managing comfortable midtable finishes in most of them seasons. In 2006 though they were relegated but Bruce would stick around and get them promoted at the first time of asking. But he wouldn't stick around for long as Carson Yeung would take over soon after and Bruce resigned.

Wigan= He returns to Wigan and has quite a good spell there despite a relegation fight in his first year. In his second year he guided them to their best finish in the top flight (eleventh place) and built a decent squad of players.

Sunderland= He goes to Sunderland and spent two seasons there. He done very well in the first season especially by leading them to 13th place. It did go sour though in the second season and he was sacked with the team lying in 16th place

Hull= He goes back to the Championship with Hull and gets them automatic promotion at the first time of asking. The third time he'd achieved this feat. He then stabilises them in the premiership by finishing in 16th place and also had the added bonus of leading them to an FA cup final. However the next year Hull were relegated, the second relegation on Bruce's record after a tough season. He didn't jump ship though, he stuck around and once again got his team back in the big time at the first time of asking by finishing in the top six and winning the play-off final. But after a disagreement with the Hull owner he would resign before the start of the new season.

Some stats I've come across

Championship record

301 games - 144 wins

47.8%


Average position finishes

Premier League - 13.6
Championship - 3.25


Overall win ratio at all clubs

Games= 784
Wins= 295
Draws= 194
Lost= 295
Win ratio= 37.6

More notes:

So to sum it up in around seven full seasons in the championship he's been promoted four times, got to the play-offs in another and finished top ten the other two. And in the premiership out of around ten seasons in that league he's been mainly midtable but also had two relegation's.


HIS TRANSFER RECORD

I think this is one of his massive strengths tbh. We've seen managers stay in a box like O'Neil and stick to british based players mainly, we've seen a manager like Houllier who was a mixed bag when he got foreign talent and good british talent too. Then Lambert at first focused on lower league bargains but then got in the odd gem like Benteke. I think Bruce is a mix of all those things. At Blues he signed the likes of Forrsell, Duggary, Dunne etc. At Wigan he brought in some very exciting talent like Valencia, Palacios, Zaki, Figueroa and the like. At Sunderland he got in Gyan, Sessegnon and Mignolet, and lastly at Hull he signed players like Diami, Hernandez, Huddlestone, Snodgrass, Ramirez, Ben Arfer etc.

So he's extremely creative in the market and mixes it up a lot. He can get exciting foreign talent and then he'll get a young british talent like Robertson. Who was the last manager we had with such a transfer record? Sherwood never bought players before coming here, RDM rarely bough player at the clubs he was at and Garde used youth mostly at Lyon so none of them were proven in the market like Bruce is.


THE EXPERIENCE FACTOR

These are the amount of games our last four managers had managed before coming to Villa

Lambert= 325 games
Sherwood= 28 games
Garde= 166 games
Di-Matteo= 210 games

Which combined comes up to 729 games.

Steve Bruce has managed 784 games so maths tells us he's managed more games before potentially coming here than all of the last four did combined. I think this is massively important in the situation the club finds itself in because Steve will have seen all the challenges the former managers failed to deal with and then some. Yes sometimes there's the odd young manager who pulls up trees without tons of games behind him but more often than not it's the more experienced managers who flourish. Alan Pardew is the same age and has managed 791 games, Tony Pulis is three years older and has managed 1001 games, Big Sam is 61 and he's managed 957 games, Mark Hughes is 52 and has managed 526 games, Ranieri is 64 and has managed 974 games.

Every single one of them has had their successes and failures at various times. They've been sacked, some have been written off etc. But all of them were in the same league as us last season and did exactly what their teams required them to do (and much more in Ranieri's case) and it all goes back to their experience in the game. And for the first time since O'Neill stepped into this wonderful club we'd have a manager with the very same experiences as the managers I named above. And I think that's very important in the current climate.

So to round off this argument. He's actually performed fairly well wherever he's been, he's got a good track record in the market, he's the best promotion specialist the championship has seen in recent times and he's managed several mid table finishes in the Premiership at much smaller clubs than ours who had much less resources too.

I'm not saying he's Ferguson #2, but in the cold light of day when you look at what we need right now i.e promotion is quickly as possible, stability when back in the premiership and for someone to spend the cash given to them wisely, then we probably couldn't wish for a better man than big Bruce right now tbh.


Last edited by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:30 am; edited 2 times in total
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Cha Ching on Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:22 am

You're knocking this manager search out of the park. Another great post on the subject and you make a very good case for Bruce there. The fact that he has had more experience than all of our previous four managers combined is important. It will be interesting to see how our owner will back him and who he thinks we need in January.
avatar
Cha Ching



Posts : 431
Reputation : 316
Join date : 2014-04-16

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:46 am

Cha Ching wrote:You're knocking this manager search out of the park. Another great post on the subject and you make a very good case for Bruce there. The fact that he has had more experience than all of our previous four managers combined is important. It will be interesting to see how our owner will back him and who he thinks we need in January.

Cheers. When one looks deep into his record you actually see a manager who has been remarkably consistent. In the championship he gets teams competing for promotion and in the premiership he's usually finished in midtable. All this without being at a top club with decent funds to play with.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by DelboyVilla on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:45 am

Brilliant post AT and reading that we should all be getting behind Bruce!

My only concern is the whole 'footballing philosophy' thing as Bruce's style of play is not something anyone has ever built on? So do we put that on hold and accept that getting out this league is more important than stylish play?

DelboyVilla



Posts : 1106
Reputation : 1283
Join date : 2014-05-14
Age : 47

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Trotters on Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:01 am

Bravo (once again), @AstonThriller

It was never the link to the Villa hating, slum-dwelling, 12-toed, inbred freak that bothered me; it was a feeling of "meh". Surely with the ambition and financial backing of Xia combined with the board we have, we can do better.

But the harsh reality is that we're at the wrong end of a league that we'd all hoped (expected?) to absolutely obliterate. After all, we've got 80 goals a season in our front line and plenty of quality and experience at the back.

But fact remains that we are deep in trouble, have not won anything for longer than I care to think about and have spent he last 5 years being the most dire club in football.

Maybe Bruce IS the man to hit that reset button. Maybe we do need to accept that, despite history, despite our overall record, despite the ground and training facilities, etc, we're a nothing club.

Xia is a breath of fresh air and his investment has been superb but out on the green stuff we are just awful.

After reading the OP, I might not be in such a rush to slit my wrists if Bruce gets the job.
avatar
Trotters



Posts : 9586
Reputation : 5255
Join date : 2014-03-09
Age : 46
Location : Brisbane

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by De Kuip on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:38 am

Great post AT.
However it still says to me more than ever that Bruce is a short term managerial solution for us. If he stays true to his record then yes he will do a job for us in the championship and should get us back into the prem but thereafter I wouldn't want him in charge. You can't argue with the stats above, but what they don't say is that, for me, regardless of buying in some decent foreign players, I wouldn't have rushed to pay and watch any of Hull, Wigan or the scum (obviously) when he was at the helm. So for those clubs above where he stayed they were "yawn", and for the other clubs he was either a nearly man or did a job and then either disagreed with the board or others and left/was sacked.
I admit that my feelings about him are clouded by the fact I cannot stand the man and just as important he carries the stink of the scum on him, but I also think if he is appointed on anything more than a 2 year contract I'll be disappointed.
On an unrelated note, as an antidote to the frustration of being a Villa fan at the moment and taking advantage of  the bore-fest that is the international break, I went to watch Exeter Chiefs v Gloucester yesterday. What a great feeling is being able to stand on the terraces with a pint in each hand watching the match. What a shame I can't do that when watching Villa - there's been a few times this season at VP when I've needed that level of alcohol intake lol.
avatar
De Kuip



Posts : 2143
Reputation : 3430
Join date : 2014-05-20
Age : 100

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:43 am

DelboyVilla wrote:Brilliant post AT and reading that we should all be getting behind Bruce!

My only concern is the whole 'footballing philosophy' thing as Bruce's style of play is not something anyone has ever built on? So do we put that on hold and accept that getting out this league is more important than stylish play?

Yeah the "philosophy" part is clearly the sacrificial lamb in this scenario. Because I'm not sure Bruce has a specific style tbh. I think the play of his team is mostly determined on the tools he has at hand. At Wigan I remember his team played with power and pace, but with Sunderland perhaps it was more direct. Maybe the board have seen that the likes of Southampton who wasn't playing as they are now in the championship as they had Nigel Adkins. They only made the change once in the premiership when they brought in Poch.

The other way to do it is to sort out the youth and u23 philosophy first whilst Bruce gets us up, and then once that is in place they can make the change whenever they see fit.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Trotters on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:47 am

I was going to try and come up with some analogy about us not currently having a girlfriend and carrying on like spoiled rich kids demanding only the filthiest one with the nicest face and biggest tits.

But you know the discussion will turn to Steve Bruce's face and tits and no one wants that.
avatar
Trotters



Posts : 9586
Reputation : 5255
Join date : 2014-03-09
Age : 46
Location : Brisbane

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:54 am

Trotters wrote:

But fact remains that we are deep in trouble, have not won anything for longer than I care to think about and have spent he last 5 years being the most dire club in football.

Maybe Bruce IS the man to hit that reset button. Maybe we do need to accept that, despite history, despite our overall record, despite the ground and training facilities, etc, we're a nothing club.

Xia is a breath of fresh air and his investment has been superb but out on the green stuff we are just awful.

After reading the OP, I might not be in such a rush to slit my wrists if Bruce gets the job.

We're no doubt going through a dodgy spell my friend. I thought we'd blitz this league even if we didn't spend 60m Laughing . But perhaps the problems at this club were way more deeper than we all imagined. The objective at the end of the day is to get out of this league by any means necessary. And in Bruce we really couldn't get a better man for the job tbh.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by DelboyVilla on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:08 am

AstonThriller wrote:
DelboyVilla wrote:Brilliant post AT and reading that we should all be getting behind Bruce!

My only concern is the whole 'footballing philosophy' thing as Bruce's style of play is not something anyone has ever built on? So do we put that on hold and accept that getting out this league is more important than stylish play?

Yeah the "philosophy" part is clearly the sacrificial lamb in this scenario. Because I'm not sure Bruce has a specific style tbh. I think the play of his team is mostly determined on the tools he has at hand. At Wigan I remember his team played with power and pace, but with Sunderland perhaps it was more direct. Maybe the board have seen that the likes of Southampton who wasn't playing as they are now in the championship as they had Nigel Adkins. They only made the change once in the premiership when they brought in Poch.

The other way to do it is to sort out the youth and u23 philosophy first whilst Bruce gets us up, and then once that is in place they can make the change whenever they see fit.

Yes 'footballing philosophy' and 'style' is perhaps a smoke screen to the manager choice when we are sitting 19th in the Championship with one win all season? Let's get out of this league first before thinking about such lofty things? We have fallen back into last year's bad habit of losing and we need someone to get these players to care about playing for the shirt and Bruce may have these abilities? Chris Kirkland reckons Bruce is the best manager he played for? Not the greatest endorsement but it is something?

DelboyVilla



Posts : 1106
Reputation : 1283
Join date : 2014-05-14
Age : 47

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:04 am

The Sun recon Steve has already started building his coaching staff...

According to The Sun, Steve Bruce is keen to bring in coaches Stephen Clemence, Steve Agnew and Nigel Spink.

This would be very assuring because Agnew was Bruce's assistant at Hull in 2012 and was highly rated as Bruce says HERE. Clemence too was a first team coach at Hull with Bruce and was also at Sunderland with him too. HERE Clemence touts Bruce up for the England job.

And lastly Spinksy worked with Bruce at the Noses, Wigan and Sunderland as well. So the issues I talked about in another thread concerning Sherwood, Garde and RDM not bringing in coaches they'd previously worked with wouldn't be a problem if Bruce appoints these guys.

In closing if that info proves to be correct then I guess that means Clarke, Bond and Battara would be leaving their positions.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by George on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:18 am

...and we'd have one of the best chants ever :-

Potato Head's claret and blue army, Potato Head's claret and blue army....
avatar
George



Posts : 64
Reputation : 124
Join date : 2014-05-09
Location : New Zealand

http://www.streetart.co.nz

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Joppe84 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:16 am

I think it's a lazy appointment.

The ONLY thing going for him is his record with promotions, which is both good and important.

The fact is that ANY half competent manager will get us up the table. ANY half competent manager will have us promoted when we outspend the entire league.

To me it would be far better appointing unknown potential like anyone of the lower league managers that has had success, to prove himself with us. Just like we had with JG or Brian Little. Whether that man is Dean Smith or Dick Knobson I don't know. But there is better alternatives than Bruce. This just tells me Round has no idea what he's doing.
avatar
Joppe84



Posts : 3554
Reputation : 2998
Join date : 2015-06-17
Location : Oslo

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by The Utterer on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:09 pm

If Bruce comes i will back him 100%, i'm personally not bothered by his Sha connections as franklty i couldn't give two monkeys about that lot apart from when 3 points are at stake as i would be with any other game of course. I know it will hang heavy on Bruce (should we go on a bad run) with a large swathe of the fan base of course but there you go. That is my main concern with him and that's not really targeted against him personally more the workability of his position under the continued poor results scenario.

Putting that aside i would back him 100% and this could be an amazing opportunity for him to finally show his full potential as a manager. All his previous roles have been, with all due respect to those other clubs, limited opportunities which he has done well in. Sunderland may well argue but i would hope this was his biggest opportunity of the lot with everything (apart from an under performing team with a midfield in crises) in place.

avatar
The Utterer



Posts : 1125
Reputation : 1125
Join date : 2014-04-18

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Villa_Dan on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Bruce is a manager who can get us up and keep us up for the next season. We build from there. 

Is he the guy to fulfil Tony's vision? No. But when you have a deadline on getting promoted (which we do) then it is hard to look beyond a proven commodity like Bruce
avatar
Villa_Dan



Posts : 4261
Reputation : 4019
Join date : 2014-05-13

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:24 pm

Joppe84 wrote:I think it's a lazy appointment.

The ONLY thing going for him is his record with promotions, which is both good and important.

The fact is that ANY half competent manager will get us up the table. ANY half competent manager will have us promoted when we outspend the entire league.

To me it would be far better appointing unknown potential like anyone of the lower league managers that has had success, to prove himself with us. Just like we had with JG or Brian Little. Whether that man is Dean Smith or Dick Knobson I don't know. But there is better alternatives than Bruce. This just tells me Round has no idea what he's doing.

I really don't understand what you're talking about here!! Over the head . Firstly a "lazy" appointment would be keeping hold of Clarke and not changing anything at all, not getting in a man who's possibly got one of the greatest records of any manager who has had an extended period in that division. Secondly we already gambled on young talent when we appointed Sherwood, Garde and RDM, how many more times do we have to get burnt before we learn that experience is the only thing that will truly settle this club? And no, not "any half decent manager" is gonna do this job because we had a manager who had won the champions league, FA cup and also got promoted with the baggies and he turned out to be a dud. IMO it's better to sway on the side of caution this time rather than throw mud at the wall again in the hope that it will stick.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Joppe84 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:48 pm

Each to their own. It's a lazy appointment in the sense that it's a go to manager in this division. He doesn't suit the tactic Round has set to be ours. He isn't hungry or young. It's literally the first suggestion they could get from someone. The rest I've already covered
avatar
Joppe84



Posts : 3554
Reputation : 2998
Join date : 2015-06-17
Location : Oslo

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:01 pm

Joppe84 wrote:Each to their own. It's a lazy appointment in the sense that it's a go to manager in this division. He doesn't suit the tactic Round has set to be ours. He isn't hungry or young. It's literally the first suggestion they could get from someone. The rest I've already covered

Well actually the fact that Bruce is available is just a matter of circumstance. The bottom line is if we're looking to get out of this division we simply couldn't ask for a better man to take over the helm. Also, we don't know what Round's "philosophy" is right now so I don't know how you can come to that conclusion tbh.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Joppe84 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:09 pm

I think we do know. More or less all the managers we were linked with along with RDM prefers 4231. It's obvious he's been on board with our manager hunt. It's also been in the media that Round's role was to determine our style of play so we could switch managers, but keep the same playing staff. The managers Round has served with before, like Moyes and Mclaren also play 4231.

Whether Bruce was and is available is hugely irrelevant. We shouldn't even hire managers cause they are available. They are available for a reason. No wonder we always suck
avatar
Joppe84



Posts : 3554
Reputation : 2998
Join date : 2015-06-17
Location : Oslo

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by deadbuzzardalive on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:19 pm

I'm pretty sure that Bruce got Sunderland into the top ten at some point. Their fans mock him for it, because he apparently always brings it up.

deadbuzzardalive



Posts : 2115
Reputation : 1398
Join date : 2014-05-19

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:43 pm

Joppe84 wrote:I think we do know. More or less all the managers we were linked with along with RDM prefers 4231. It's obvious he's been on board with our manager hunt. It's also been in the media that Round's role was to determine our style of play so we could switch managers, but keep the same playing staff. The managers Round has served with before, like Moyes and Mclaren also play 4231.

Whether Bruce was and is available is hugely irrelevant. We shouldn't even hire managers cause they are available. They are available for a reason. No wonder we always suck

Er Bruce plays 4231 too so what's your point? Furthermore Bruce is only available due to the fact that he decided to QUIT a team he'd just taken back to the PREMIERSHIP, a place we too wish to return to. So it's not as if the man was just sacked and is looking for another chance somewhere. Honestly if you don't like the bloke then fair enough, but lets not try to distort the man's record in the process.
avatar
AstonThriller



Posts : 1831
Reputation : 1665
Join date : 2014-04-21

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Joppe84 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:51 pm

Actually according to an interview I just read with Bruce he doesn't have a spesific tactic. Much like Clough he thinks tactics are hugely irrelevant
avatar
Joppe84



Posts : 3554
Reputation : 2998
Join date : 2015-06-17
Location : Oslo

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Trotters on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:57 pm

With the mention of the England job (see the other thread) I do wonder if Bruce could look at himself - fuck me, you'd break all the mirrors first wouldn't you? - and think that he could be putting himself in the shop window if he gets Villa up with a bit of tactical flare.

Kind of like Sam Allardyce without the dodgy conversations.

Or will he see Villa as his last pay-day before retiring and really not give a fuck if we perform or not?

I'd very much hope that there'll be a creative contract written up whereby RDM-type failure doesn't pay very well at all, a considerable improvement and a push for the top 6 will pay quite well and promotion gives him enough to do whatever he wants in life.

Extra bonus for beating the noses and mouthing the words "shit on the city" at full time.
avatar
Trotters



Posts : 9586
Reputation : 5255
Join date : 2014-03-09
Age : 46
Location : Brisbane

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Trotters on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:58 pm

Joppe84 wrote:Actually according to an interview I just read with Bruce he doesn't have a spesific tactic. Much like Clough he thinks tactics are hugely irrelevant

Copy and paste?
avatar
Trotters



Posts : 9586
Reputation : 5255
Join date : 2014-03-09
Age : 46
Location : Brisbane

Back to top Go down

Re: THE CASE FOR STEVE BRUCE

Post by Trotters on Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:07 pm

The case AGAINST Steve Bruce...


avatar
Trotters



Posts : 9586
Reputation : 5255
Join date : 2014-03-09
Age : 46
Location : Brisbane

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum