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A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

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A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:46 am

This is very important where this next managerial appointment is concerned. The last three managers this club has had have three things in common!!.. ALL of them failed to bring in their trusted assistants once arriving.

Tim Sherwood= Never had Chris Ramsey with him who at the time was made manager of QPR. He was forced to work with Kevin Mccdonald and Sid Cowans at first and then sought out the services of Ray Wilkins and Mark Robson as coaches, people who he hadn't worked with in the past and it ended badly.

Remi Garde= Had a decent time at Lyon alongside assistants Gérald Baticle and Bruno Génésio. But when he came to Villa neither was allowed to join him as the French club didn't want to let them go in the middle of a season. Remi then appointed Reginald Ray and then later on he got in Erik Black. Again he had not worked with either before and the team was relegated.

Roberto Di Matteo= At MK Dons, West Brom and Chelsea he had trusted assistant Eddie Newton alongside him. And he achieved a lot of success. He then went to Schalke and had some German assistants but the success was never the same and he left after one season. On turning up at Villa he then appoints Steve Clarke, Kevin Bond, Marchesi, Battara etc, again people he'd never worked with as a manager before and we won once in eleven games.

A similar thing happened in the middle of Paul Lambert's reign. As we all know at first he had his trusted assistants who he brought with him from Norwich in Ian Culverhouse and Garry Karsa. Both of them left Villa in 2014 and though the team weren't exactly doing great when he had them, Lambert having to bring in a new assistant in Roy Keane just brought everything downhill even further.

So ultimately what I'm trying to say is perhaps the club should think long and hard about bringing someone in who has his own trusted staff around him who knows exactly what he wants on the training field each and every day. The facts above don't lie, the last four managers we've had have had to shuffle their staff around and it's ended in disaster. Steve Bruce had Erik Black with him for a long time who is currently at Southampton, while Mike Phelan was with him last season and he's now the Hull manager. So bringing someone like that in, even with his promotion record, might see us see the same problems we've had before.

Now don't get me wrong, the managers I named above may have still failed here even if they had their proper assistants at all times, but I really do think there is value in bringing someone in who has a settled group of people around him and doesn't have to get to know his own staff whilst trying to get results. I've sent this information to the club so it's up to them if they wish to heed the message.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Cha Ching on Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:40 am

That's a great observation and a worry that even if we take Bruce on that he won't have his trusted sidekicks with him. Same might go for Wagner. Huddersfield would want some form of continuity so might not let his backroom staff leave with him. Shades of Garde again.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Trotters on Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:58 am

A very interesting post again, AT.

It should be the case where a manager simply communicates what he wants dine and the coaches make it happen but that's simplistic in the extreme and probably becomes invalid in the top 2 or 3 divisions.

The whole house of cards becomes even more complex when you add Steve Round to the mix; which is the dog and which is the tail?

I'd tend to think the managers you mentioned would probably have failed anyway but it's not difficult to accept that the finer points that a coaching "team" would deliver may have seen a few more wins here and there.

I'm pretty sure a few more wins - as opposed to draws - would have made the world of difference to RDM.

Apparently Wagner has a holistic approach involving his view nutritionist and McGrath knows who else. Maybe he'll feel he can proper expand on his ideas at Villa whereas he's kind of having to go with what he's got at Huddersfield (??). Who knows.

Does Potato Head have a preference as to what other veges he likes to work with?
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Army villain on Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:02 pm

@AstonThriller wrote: Drumroll Please This is very important where this next managerial appointment is concerned. The last three managers this club has had have three things in common!!.. ALL of them failed to bring in their trusted assistants once arriving.

Tim Sherwood= Never had Chris Ramsey with him who at the time was made manager of QPR. He was forced to work with Kevin Mccdonald and Sid Cowans at first and then sought out the services of Ray Wilkins and Mark Robson as coaches, people who he hadn't worked with in the past and it ended badly.

Remi Garde= Had a decent time at Lyon alongside assistants Gérald Baticle and Bruno Génésio. But when he came to Villa neither was allowed to join him as the French club didn't want to let them go in the middle of a season. Remi then appointed Reginald Ray and then later on he got in Erik Black. Again he had not worked with either before and the team was relegated.

Roberto Di Matteo= At MK Dons, West Brom and Chelsea he had trusted assistant Eddie Newton alongside him. And he achieved a lot of success. He then went to Schalke and had some German assistants but the success was never the same and he left after one season. On turning up at Villa he then appoints Steve Clarke, Kevin Bond, Marchesi, Battara etc, again people he'd never worked with as a manager before and we won once in eleven games.

A similar thing happened in the middle of Paul Lambert's reign. As we all know at first he had his trusted assistants who he brought with him from Norwich in Ian Culverhouse and Garry Karsa. Both of them left Villa in 2014 and though the team weren't exactly doing great when he had them, Lambert having to bring in a new assistant in Roy Keane just brought everything downhill even further.

So ultimately what I'm trying to say is perhaps the club should think long and hard about bringing someone in who has his own trusted staff around him who knows exactly what he wants on the training field each and every day. The facts above don't lie, the last four managers we've had have had to shuffle their staff around and it's ended in disaster. Steve Bruce had Erik Black with him for a long time who is currently at Southampton, while Mike Phelan was with him last season and he's now the Hull manager. So bringing someone like that in, even with his promotion record, might see us see the same problems we've had before.

Now don't get me wrong, the managers I named above may have still failed here even if they had their proper assistants at all times, but I really do think there is value in bringing someone in who has a settled group of people around him and doesn't have to get to know his own staff whilst trying to get results. I've sent this information to the club so it's up to them if they wish to heed the message.
Good read, we would have to get rid of Clarke, he will be pissed off not getting the job, also he must take some of the responsibility of were we are now, unless RDM did it his own way!!
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:09 pm

@Trotters wrote:A very interesting post again, AT.

It should be the case where a manager simply communicates what he wants dine and the coaches make it happen but that's simplistic in the extreme and probably becomes invalid in the top 2 or 3 divisions.

The whole house of cards becomes even more complex when you add Steve Round to the mix; which is the dog and which is the tail?

I'd tend to think the managers you mentioned would probably have failed anyway but it's not difficult to accept that the finer points that a coaching "team" would deliver may have seen a few more wins here and there.

I'm pretty sure a few more wins - as opposed to draws - would have made the world of difference to RDM.

Apparently Wagner has a holistic approach involving his view nutritionist and McGrath  knows who else. Maybe he'll feel he can proper expand on his ideas at Villa whereas he's kind of having to go with what he's got at Huddersfield  (??). Who knows.

Does Potato Head have a preference as to what other veges he likes to work with?

The scary thing with PH is he won't be able to call upon Black or Pheland so he'd be in the same boat as Garde, Sherwood and Di-Matteo. I know he's an experienced guy but when you look at the evidence at hand i think we'd be better off getting a bloke who has all his generals in place and ready to go tbh. We need to get this one right now.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by gdav on Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:37 pm

This is what I dont really understand. If managers let the coaches take all the training sessions etc what does a manager actually do all week??
Surely managers need to be on the training ground looking at players & showing them what they want from them??
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by smetro on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:00 pm

@gdav wrote:This is what I dont really understand. If managers let the coaches take all the training sessions etc what does a manager actually do all week??
Surely managers need to be on the training ground looking at players & showing them what they want from them??

Its like any manager. He doesn't actually do much doing. He recruits, delegates and puts in a framework. and listens to the views of his senior staff. Like any manager - people leave - so the manager recruits new staff. I remember in Graham Taylors fist season - I think it was Steve Harrison left pretty early on. Graham Taylor recruited John Ward - and stressed that the way we operate doesn't change at all.

Recruiting coaches is a bit like recruiting players. A good manager will be able to get good ones - and create an environment where they thrive. A poor manager won't.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by gdav on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:32 pm

@smetro wrote:
@gdav wrote:This is what I dont really understand. If managers let the coaches take all the training sessions etc what does a manager actually do all week??
Surely managers need to be on the training ground looking at players & showing them what they want from them??

Its like any manager. He doesn't actually do much doing. He recruits, delegates and puts in a framework. and listens to the views of his senior staff. Like any manager - people leave - so the manager recruits new staff. I remember in Graham Taylors fist season - I think it was Steve Harrison left pretty early on. Graham Taylor recruited John Ward - and stressed that the way we operate doesn't change at all.

Recruiting coaches is a bit like recruiting players. A good manager will be able to get good ones - and create an environment where they thrive. A poor manager won't.

What ever happens to getting your hands dirty & showing your staff how it should be done.
Think we need someone more coach less manager.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Army villain on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:59 pm

Well if we are looking for a coach/manager who can motivate a team from stratch Wagner should be conciderd.
He has worked under one of the best managers in Europe, and has got Liverpool playing better.
Lots of praise from Klopp.
Big but is for villa is we might not get out of this league this season.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:47 pm

I've had it confirmed that the information on the OP has been forwarded to Wyness, Round and Xia. So hopefully they'll take it into consideration when making their decision. Bringing in another manager who has none of his own staff around him would be a risky game imo. What's happened to the last three managers is proof of that.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Gordonsleftboot on Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:15 pm

@AstonThriller wrote:I've had it confirmed that the information on the OP has been forwarded to Wyness, Round and Xia. So hopefully they'll take it into consideration when making their decision. Bringing in another manager who has none of his own staff around him would be a risky game imo. What's happened to the last three managers is proof of that.  

OP? Forgive my ignorance
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:49 pm

@Gordonsleftboot wrote:

OP? Forgive my ignorance  

"Opening post" or "original post"
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Gordonsleftboot on Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:36 pm

@AstonThriller wrote:
@Gordonsleftboot wrote:

OP? Forgive my ignorance  

"Opening post" or "original post"
Thank you, sir.

BTW - very interesting post! Butthen many of your are.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by Trotters on Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:54 am

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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:05 pm

@Gordonsleftboot wrote:
Thank you, sir.

BTW - very interesting post! Butthen many of your are.

Thanks pal   . I tend to think about things from an analytical standpoint sometimes which is why I come up with these sort of posts so often. Glad people enjoy them.


Last edited by AstonThriller on Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:07 pm

@Trotters wrote:

LOL brilliant Trotter
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by VillaBill on Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:55 pm

Common pattern ?
They all play the in vogue 4-2-3-1 bollox.
As Mike Bassett once said 4-4 fuckin 2
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:56 am

Well, the curse has struck again hasn't it? Bruce comes in without Phelan and look at the mess we're in? All it's done is expose Bruce for what he really is..an absolute chancer.
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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by DelboyVilla on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:05 pm

Well predicted AT?

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Re: A common pattern with our last FOUR managers!!

Post by AstonThriller on Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:38 pm

@DelboyVilla wrote:Well predicted AT?

I could see it coming pal...and the sad thing is i warned the club about this beforehand. I guess they thought Clemence and the goalkeeper coach coming in from Hull was enough. But as we've come to realise, it isn't.
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